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[Music]

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foreign

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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thank you

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[Music]

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Wilderness I've been you all good

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evening good morning good afternoon

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wherever you may be Across the Nation

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around the world my name is Leah Prime

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and this is the invisible night school

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for those of you just joining us the

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invisible night school is a small

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Consortium of lay researchers and

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Scholars pursuing the study and

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exploration of ufology high strangeness

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and the phenomena ins is not a monolith

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we represent varied ideas backgrounds

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disciplines and experiences and seek to

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engage in good faith dialogue with other

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curious minds

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so tonight we're running on a little bit

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of a skeleton crew we have Nick

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fulfilling family obligations and we

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have Lewis taking care of Life stuff so

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instead it would be myself and beloved

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Campbell leading the show so I'm going

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to get him added to the stream here

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Kimball how are you friend very well how

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are you Leah

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oh I'm I'm just a little pinch of Heaven

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it is you'll see I'm in my braids

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tonight because I am literally just

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peeled my ass off the ski slopes buzzed

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my way back home and like Dove right in

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front of my computer so we could run

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this show

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um

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I I am I'm living uh you know look

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between UFOs and work sabbatical and ski

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season this has been a very very good

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winter for me

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um

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so yeah and I see that we're also joined

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by some of our uh

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standard characters the Earth hey good

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to see you uh well actually having the

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Earth uh on as a guest uh sometime in in

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late March super excited for that Swiss

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yeah

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um our weekly regular Vancouver guy also

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known as Jeff Knox probably one of the

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most

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um knowledgeable and encyclopedic

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resources when it comes to ufology

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Michael Huntington great to see you man

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um for ludicrous yeah

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um and I think we have spooky here too

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but I was uh I saw his name in there

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somewhere yeah here we go here's spooky

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hey spooky

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um rpk what's going on man glad to see

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you here I know you're a big estimate of

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this situation fan

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um oh and Brie what's up yes I am not

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exactly a ski bunny more like a snow

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[\h__\h] but ski bunny is

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um

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so tonight we're joined by Tom orchowski

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um whose work on estimate of the

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situation is amazing I actually have a

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couple copies right next to me here at

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my desk

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um gave it a read last week it's pretty

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amazing for a lot of different reasons

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I'm super super excited to welcome him

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to the show

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um his work on estimate of the situation

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it's basically a graphic novel based on

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Cloud on Declassified documents and

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historical research associated with the

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beginning of the UFO phenomenon here in

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the United States and covers a lot of

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the US military's response

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um so I know he's backstage now so I'm

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going to get him added to this stream uh

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and welcome him to ins

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hey hey guys hey hey how are you Tom

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good uh I just got out of work so I had

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to like Rush here and uh just make sure

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everything's set up but um I'm happy to

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be here I'm happy to finally talk to

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somebody about UFOs yes I'm sure you

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don't do that like regularly at all

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I actually do open with it it's

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embarrassing but um I throw it out in

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conversations a lot I usually get like a

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lot of like uh yeah okay that's cool and

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they walk away so

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you get some they're probably some good

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conversations too though like some

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people probably really connect on that

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right like like you get some neat people

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sort of yeah that's it's really cool

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because like you sometimes like someone

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like it'll just be like I don't know

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like an old lady like uh on set or

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something and she'll like light up and

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be like oh my God and like you know

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start like I saw this thing with little

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Elizondo or blah blah blah someone you

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would never expect so it's like it's

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it's cool in that sense that like this

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kind of this topic transcends uh where

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we came from uh who we are uh it's it's

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got that like Universal curiosity that I

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think like attracts a lot of people

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yeah one of the things we've talked

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about on this show is how it's one of

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those subjects where once you say you're

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into it people always share their

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stories Nick who's absent tonight has a

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good story about how the weed store guy

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always tells him UFO stories whenever he

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comes in

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um and I've had that experience too

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where as soon as I kind of

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surreptitiously allude to the fact that

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I'm into weird stuff people see that as

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just a green light to share all their

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weird stories and weird experiences

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which is actually kind of cool I love

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hearing people's stories

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yeah no you get surprised dude how weird

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they get you're just like sometimes they

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come out of left field and like whoa is

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that person really telling the truth you

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know because it's like so out there and

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you just never expected but again it

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just shows like how wide this phenomenon

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like you know how big it is

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how big it is and also how it captivates

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its imagination

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um oh yeah who aren't UFO people quote

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unquote uh in my experience I've always

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been really interested and fascinated in

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the subject or at least have some kind

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of like emotional tie to it whether it's

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through media or books or really liking

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the X-Files or something like that it's

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pretty unusual to meet someone who

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greets the subject with any kind of

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derision or dismissal

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yeah I mean honestly like uh and that's

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probably why you know I did us in this

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situation a lot of that is uh yeah this

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subject has been treated really poorly

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across media so like if you were lucky

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enough to grow up like with the X-Files

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and and uh things like taken or um Dark

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Skies for instance like you know you had

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a really cool uh introduction into like

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what it is but then 90 of the other

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stuff it's like it's it's always like an

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alien invasion

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um Independence Day thing the aliens of

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bugs heart attack just

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yeah oh Mars Attacks I feel like is a

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great parody about it just like it's a

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great movie yeah it took all the

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stereotypes and it's like all right well

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we'll just make it as as ridiculous as

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we can you know

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um so you know it's it's it's tough

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because it depends on what your exposure

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is to it and I find that the the

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strongest

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um or the best exposure to is people

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have had like a direct experience with

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something they can't explain

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um they're usually probably like my

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favorite people to talk to

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yeah but mine too um I talk a lot on

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this show I I would I would characterize

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a number of my closest friends are what

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I would say are like real deal

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experiencers

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um that have shared their experiences

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with me I'm not but um I'm always very

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curious and interested in hearing their

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backgrounds and stories and narratives

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um

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and it always uh I'm kind of with you

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like talking about the little lady who

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shares a story it's I'm always amazed at

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how otherwise totally normal people seem

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and then they break open and share their

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it's totally wild it's super cool

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yeah it's it's one of those it's again

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it's part of The Human Experience like

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whether people you know they want to

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dismiss it or not like this phenomenon

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is part of it's intrically part of The

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Human Experience whether it is alien or

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not alien

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um it's something that like we can't

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really deny you know whether it's it's

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you know there's all sorts of theories

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like it's all mental it's a social

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contagion it's actually

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extraterrestrials interdimensional

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whatever it's still part of like what

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makes what makes us human in a sense

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that like it makes us question what is

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in front of us and what uh what is out

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there what else aren't we seeing you

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know

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how did how did you uh become interested

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in the subject uh could you tell us a

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little bit about your uh your background

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in uh exploring it whether you've had

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any observations yourself and things

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like that

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um

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I mean when I was younger I for some

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reason I always gravitated towards uh

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things like the X-Files and I think I

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just have a deep mistrust of the the

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system you know and that kind of catered

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to it and uh it got me asking questions

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introduced me all sorts of different

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concepts and I did have so I have like

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two experiences I always point to one

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I'm pretty sure was my eight-year-old

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imagination uh where I was I was walking

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down the street with my family and you

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know I look up in the sky and I see this

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gigantic UFO hovering next to my

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building in front of everybody you know

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it was like eight o'clock nine o'clock

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so it was like it was night time but it

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was there for a split second and

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I'm pretty sure that was my overactive

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imagination but even even so it left

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such an imprint on me you know like

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because I couldn't when I was eight

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years old I couldn't explain it I was

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like what the hell like you know like

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what was that like and I I remember the

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shape I remember the color all of that

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um so it had a profound effect on me

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like that

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but as far as like a a real I don't know

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what you want a citing experience I did

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see something maybe

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it was like 2012 Cherry Spring State

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Park which is like a nice dark side park

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and we're all camping and we just saw

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like uh this like like green orbish blob

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just move across the sky stop and like

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do a bunch of things and slowly Fade Out

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and all of us were like

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what did you guys see that you know and

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again it could be of multiple things but

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uh the idea that I don't know

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is more interesting to me sometimes and

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what it actually is if that makes any

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sense

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experiences and phenomena capture human

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imagination it gives you the opportunity

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to sort of interpret and creatively

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explore

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yeah I've been to Cherry Springs it's in

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Pennsylvania right oh yeah it's

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beautiful yep yeah yeah I went to an

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astronomy thing there a couple years ago

277
00:11:39,769 --> 00:11:38,100
on campus yeah they have the whole field

278
00:11:41,870 --> 00:11:39,779
where you can like take your telescope

279
00:11:44,329 --> 00:11:41,880
and just it's so sick

280
00:11:45,710 --> 00:11:44,339
but I mean like and uh piggybacking off

281
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:45,720
of that is

282
00:11:49,790 --> 00:11:48,060
um capturing your imagination like uh

283
00:11:51,430 --> 00:11:49,800
with estimate and like when you go into

284
00:11:55,550 --> 00:11:51,440
these documents with these these people

285
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,560
uh you're really I'm fascinated by their

286
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:57,839
imaginations out how the phenomenon

287
00:12:01,970 --> 00:12:00,480
captured uh basically their imagination

288
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,980
what they were seeing or they think they

289
00:12:04,670 --> 00:12:03,120
were seeing and the conclusion they

290
00:12:07,069 --> 00:12:04,680
started coming to

291
00:12:08,569 --> 00:12:07,079
um I think that the human response to

292
00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:08,579
all of this is the most interesting

293
00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:10,260
thing about it

294
00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:12,420
um I'm sure like you know the nuts and

295
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:14,220
bolts is really awesome I really like

296
00:12:18,889 --> 00:12:16,320
like dabbling in that but like how

297
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,899
people respond to to what it could be or

298
00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:20,160
what it might be or the fact that they

299
00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:22,680
don't know is the most interesting thing

300
00:12:26,030 --> 00:12:24,660
dude you're you're in good company when

301
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:26,040
we were in The Green Room before the

302
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:27,839
show we were both laughing about how

303
00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:30,240
neither of us are case people like I'm

304
00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:31,980
not a case nerd Campbell's not a case

305
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:34,380
nerd I'm through the lens of like

306
00:12:39,769 --> 00:12:37,680
folklore mythology religious studies

307
00:12:41,569 --> 00:12:39,779
um Campbell is the resident plasma guy

308
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:41,579
sorry

309
00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:42,300
um

310
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:45,300
but but also I think uh takes something

311
00:12:51,050 --> 00:12:48,959
of a psychosocial approach so the two of

312
00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:51,060
us are I think pretty fascinated in a

313
00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:52,620
similar sense to me they're really

314
00:12:57,949 --> 00:12:54,600
compelling and fascinating thing is how

315
00:13:01,009 --> 00:12:57,959
people interpret and contextualize these

316
00:13:04,850 --> 00:13:01,019
subjects within their lives and um

317
00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:04,860
create narratives and stories and both

318
00:13:08,449 --> 00:13:06,600
individual and collaborative sense

319
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:08,459
making around them it's really

320
00:13:11,810 --> 00:13:10,380
fascinating and with you and that it's

321
00:13:14,569 --> 00:13:11,820
something that's happened basically

322
00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:14,579
since time immemorial

323
00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:16,380
yeah and like you know the Lord

324
00:13:19,550 --> 00:13:18,360
surrounding this phenomenon the Lord

325
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,560
quote-unquote like all the different

326
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,120
explanations all the different stories

327
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:23,220
like I mean there's no way they're all

328
00:13:27,230 --> 00:13:25,320
right right but it's just like the way

329
00:13:28,730 --> 00:13:27,240
it branches off into like all these

330
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,740
different areas is again is

331
00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:30,720
representative of the human phenomena of

332
00:13:35,870 --> 00:13:33,540
like where our mind goes uh which is

333
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,880
like really interesting you know I can I

334
00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:38,399
can listen about you know like Coast to

335
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:40,500
Coast was a was a huge influence growing

336
00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:42,300
up too you know and someone come on

337
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:44,100
start talking about reptilians and Grays

338
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:47,100
and all these things and it's like it it

339
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,440
brings you somewhere you know whether

340
00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:51,360
you agree or disagree or you know the

341
00:13:55,730 --> 00:13:53,700
person's bsing or not it's like just the

342
00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:55,740
thought behind it you know like brings

343
00:13:58,910 --> 00:13:57,420
you somewhere

344
00:14:02,569 --> 00:13:58,920
um and but that's also why I like

345
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:02,579
casework a lot because with casework I

346
00:14:06,889 --> 00:14:05,760
think it's documented by people usually

347
00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:06,899
like like with the stuff that I'm

348
00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:08,700
dealing with it's my Pilots it's like

349
00:14:13,490 --> 00:14:10,740
people in the military people who who

350
00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:13,500
have a very uh uh

351
00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:15,480
quote unquote Square background you know

352
00:14:18,410 --> 00:14:16,680
who saw something that they can't

353
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,420
explain and not only they see something

354
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:20,399
they felt compelled to report it right

355
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:23,040
and it not only like that happened but

356
00:14:26,569 --> 00:14:24,360
then the government felt compelled to

357
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,579
actually investigate it right so for me

358
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:28,320
that

359
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,060
very interesting because it shows me

360
00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:34,800
that this entity is taking it very

361
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:36,360
seriously

362
00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:38,100
um I don't know how I branched up into

363
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:41,820
that but uh casework just kind of it's

364
00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:43,199
something you can sink your teeth into

365
00:14:47,150 --> 00:14:45,300
you know you can cross-examine you can

366
00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:47,160
cross-check it you can you can call up

367
00:14:52,490 --> 00:14:49,560
people which we've done uh you can talk

368
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:52,500
to Witnesses you know and and you can

369
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:54,360
kind of navigate your way through okay

370
00:14:58,850 --> 00:14:56,040
well this person's telling the truth or

371
00:15:00,110 --> 00:14:58,860
this person uh is clearly like you know

372
00:15:01,610 --> 00:15:00,120
lying

373
00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:01,620
um or they miss they mistook it for

374
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:03,540
something right but then the small

375
00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:05,040
amount of cases where it's like oh crap

376
00:15:08,509 --> 00:15:06,540
like you cannot explain this in any

377
00:15:09,889 --> 00:15:08,519
other way that's really what leaves an

378
00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:09,899
impression and I think it's a left an

379
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,639
impression on our on our government 75

380
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:13,920
years ago you know the very small amount

381
00:15:18,129 --> 00:15:16,079
of cases where it's like well yeah it

382
00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:18,139
wasn't ours wasn't foreign

383
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:19,980
what was it

384
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:22,560
so

385
00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:25,620
now how did uh you when you came

386
00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:27,540
together to to work on this project

387
00:15:32,449 --> 00:15:30,360
estimate of the situation and there are

388
00:15:34,430 --> 00:15:32,459
those like social barriers that we kind

389
00:15:37,610 --> 00:15:34,440
of touched on between people talking

390
00:15:39,829 --> 00:15:37,620
freely about these um Frontier or like

391
00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:39,839
uh you know Niche subjects

392
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,360
how did you find uh and communicate with

393
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,399
the people that you came together with

394
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,040
to make this project happen

395
00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:50,399
man it was it was a very long uphill

396
00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:52,680
battle uh so for like

397
00:15:58,009 --> 00:15:55,320
two three years this wall is probably

398
00:15:59,810 --> 00:15:58,019
like three times as big uh going

399
00:16:02,269 --> 00:15:59,820
horizontal

400
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:02,279
um I I remember talking to people about

401
00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:03,660
it when I was younger and I couldn't

402
00:16:08,210 --> 00:16:05,820
adequately like actually talk about it I

403
00:16:09,530 --> 00:16:08,220
know I believed uh I believe something I

404
00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:09,540
believe the government was lying about

405
00:16:12,889 --> 00:16:10,620
something I believe there's something

406
00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:12,899
out there but when that us pressed I

407
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,040
couldn't actually give like a real

408
00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:15,839
answer so it forced me to really go back

409
00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:18,779
to a drawing board and be like okay

410
00:16:23,329 --> 00:16:20,760
um I'm just gonna figure out for myself

411
00:16:27,290 --> 00:16:23,339
like if this is all Bs if this is this

412
00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:27,300
is whatever uh so I started I I forgot

413
00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:29,820
what the first document was it was um

414
00:16:35,329 --> 00:16:31,800
it was one document I think it was

415
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:35,339
Garrett's first estimate and uh I I

416
00:16:38,449 --> 00:16:37,019
remember I printed it out and I'm like I

417
00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:38,459
I don't know what any of this means you

418
00:16:41,329 --> 00:16:39,420
know like I don't know who these people

419
00:16:43,129 --> 00:16:41,339
are so I started piecing it together

420
00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:43,139
little by little and I have a video on

421
00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:45,240
the website where there's this kid going

422
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,980
through documents that's actually my

423
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,959
room I just took a camera in there and I

424
00:16:52,610 --> 00:16:50,880
lit it and I was like I just wanted to

425
00:16:55,249 --> 00:16:52,620
uh to see what it would look like on

426
00:16:58,129 --> 00:16:55,259
film but um I started going through it

427
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,139
and it just became like uh I don't know

428
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:00,000
maybe it was cathartic or I I can't

429
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:01,680
explain it but like

430
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:03,839
I couldn't get enough I couldn't get

431
00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:05,760
enough and what I gravitated to was

432
00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:07,500
really like these older old school

433
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:09,600
researchers you know like Wendy Connor

434
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:12,000
it's Jen aldrick uh Greenwood a bunch of

435
00:17:16,909 --> 00:17:14,100
other people and I got introduced to a

436
00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:16,919
book called UFOs in government which I

437
00:17:21,770 --> 00:17:18,780
think is probably the real deal with

438
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:21,780
Michael swords man oh man it's it's the

439
00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:25,439
Bible and I I read that and I was so

440
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,900
blown away by how seriously and

441
00:17:32,330 --> 00:17:29,760
methodically these researchers took this

442
00:17:33,409 --> 00:17:32,340
subject and actually organized it in a

443
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:33,419
way that

444
00:17:38,570 --> 00:17:35,760
it doesn't give you doesn't tell you

445
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:38,580
what it is but more documents what the

446
00:17:41,090 --> 00:17:39,840
government thought and how they

447
00:17:45,169 --> 00:17:41,100
responded

448
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:45,179
um from A to Z so I I once I got that

449
00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:47,220
book I got more names and I decided to

450
00:17:52,909 --> 00:17:49,080
focus on just 1947 I'm like okay when

451
00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:52,919
did this start and you you realize uh

452
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,780
once you dive deeper into this at the

453
00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:56,880
first actual like serious inquiry it was

454
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:59,100
called project sign so after that it was

455
00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:01,200
like okay let me get everything I can on

456
00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:04,140
Project sign all the people involved uh

457
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:06,120
the the conclusions that they were

458
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,860
making what they thought who they had to

459
00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:09,360
talk to

460
00:18:14,090 --> 00:18:11,700
um and so I compiled all of this and I

461
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:14,100
finally had like I'm not a ufologist and

462
00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:15,600
I just want to make sure everybody knows

463
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:17,580
that I I

464
00:18:22,669 --> 00:18:20,760
no like a lot of people want to want to

465
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:22,679
claim that title you know

466
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:25,140
um I I don't care if you do but I know

467
00:18:28,490 --> 00:18:26,880
that uh

468
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,500
I'm just not I'm just someone very

469
00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:30,480
interested in in the topic and the

470
00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:32,580
phenomenon and the researchers that came

471
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:34,020
before me

472
00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:36,720
um so I I compiled all those and I wrote

473
00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:38,580
a draft and it was a really shitty draft

474
00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:40,440
I don't know if I can hear us on here

475
00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:41,580
but

476
00:18:48,110 --> 00:18:45,080
um it was really crappy oh you're fine

477
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:48,120
nothing about this show is optimized for

478
00:18:52,669 --> 00:18:50,400
the YouTube algorithm so like you can

479
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,679
swear as much as you want

480
00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:54,720
dude I wrote a draft

481
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,460
um because I I was so compelled by this

482
00:19:01,370 --> 00:18:58,799
story and I was so disenfranchised by

483
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:01,380
just how again this is what how this

484
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:03,120
subject is represented

485
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,679
um and I was like why is there not like

486
00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:06,720
a serious take on this like like some

487
00:19:10,130 --> 00:19:08,280
something where where I actually have an

488
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:10,140
idea of where the government came from

489
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:12,480
and what these things might have been

490
00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:16,380
um so I started writing this script and

491
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:18,600
it was so bad I rewrote it I think three

492
00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:21,840
or four times and finally I started uh I

493
00:19:25,370 --> 00:19:23,340
found an artist I've been working with

494
00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:25,380
on a bunch of other projects and I was

495
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:27,480
like hey let's I started storyboarding

496
00:19:31,310 --> 00:19:29,460
some stuff sending some sketches with

497
00:19:33,289 --> 00:19:31,320
like the balloon the word balloons and

498
00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:33,299
like what I want in every every panel

499
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,940
they started coming back and they looked

500
00:19:38,029 --> 00:19:37,440
really cool

501
00:19:41,870 --> 00:19:38,039
um

502
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:41,880
I had maybe like 13 14 pages done color

503
00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:44,880
and I was like wow this is really cool

504
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:47,700
then I reread it and I was like oh man

505
00:19:53,450 --> 00:19:51,600
this is still crap you know so um after

506
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,460
I met Ezekiel and we started

507
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:55,200
storyboarding and and getting these

508
00:20:00,650 --> 00:19:56,880
these Pages out

509
00:20:02,330 --> 00:20:00,660
um I ended up going to my friend John uh

510
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:02,340
John zodis who's the other writer on

511
00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:03,960
this project I'm like hey I have all

512
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:06,120
this stuff here I need help structuring

513
00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:09,000
it because there are so there's so many

514
00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:10,440
people involved so many different

515
00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:12,660
branches of the government and John is a

516
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:14,160
total non-believer so it was a really

517
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:15,840
hard sell but once I showed them the

518
00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:17,700
pages I'm like hey this is how far along

519
00:20:22,909 --> 00:20:20,460
I am and like at that point there was no

520
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:22,919
incentive to sell anything no incentive

521
00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:24,900
to to it was just like dude I want to

522
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,220
make this story

523
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,559
yeah Aldridge sword I mean they're

524
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:30,240
they're Legends dude and like I actually

525
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:32,400
hit some of them we're huge we're huge

526
00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:35,820
fan boys girls fan people for these

527
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,860
people for Barry Greenwood Shannon

528
00:20:42,529 --> 00:20:39,840
Aldrich Michael swords especially I'm a

529
00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:42,539
huge Michael swords nerd I love his blog

530
00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:44,340
I have this like personal Crusade where

531
00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:46,020
I want to make it into a book because

532
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:48,360
it's like 10 years of his like personal

533
00:20:51,289 --> 00:20:50,160
thoughts on exploring the subject he's

534
00:20:53,450 --> 00:20:51,299
incredible

535
00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:53,460
yeah it's it's so dense and like and

536
00:20:57,169 --> 00:20:54,960
those are the resources I was hitting up

537
00:21:00,110 --> 00:20:57,179
and uh before I even went to John so

538
00:21:01,909 --> 00:21:00,120
like I I was compiling all this research

539
00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:01,919
um I I hit up some of these researchers

540
00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:04,200
like Wendy Connors who was still with us

541
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,840
at the time and I emailed her

542
00:21:10,610 --> 00:21:09,120
um I found her email somewhere like on

543
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,620
some website that looked like geocities

544
00:21:15,169 --> 00:21:12,960
or you know how they all are

545
00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:15,179
um and she actually emailed me back and

546
00:21:18,289 --> 00:21:16,620
I didn't know this at the time but she

547
00:21:21,890 --> 00:21:18,299
was emailing me for while on a

548
00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:21,900
respirator right and I was like hey yeah

549
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,940
and I was like I didn't know this at the

550
00:21:26,990 --> 00:21:25,679
time but I was just basically asking her

551
00:21:29,149 --> 00:21:27,000
all these questions about all these

552
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:29,159
people involved and if there's any sort

553
00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:32,400
of leads and then she um she gave me her

554
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:35,460
Archives of uh the interviews which are

555
00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:37,080
now on like think archives.org or

556
00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:38,940
something like that of interviews that

557
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,620
she had done with some of the surviving

558
00:21:45,169 --> 00:21:42,960
family members of the people that were

559
00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:45,179
involved in Project sign like the main

560
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:47,220
players So I listened to that whole

561
00:21:54,289 --> 00:21:50,340
archive she gave me some more articles

562
00:21:56,810 --> 00:21:54,299
um I called Michael swords and he hung

563
00:21:59,930 --> 00:21:56,820
up on me like within the first second

564
00:22:03,169 --> 00:21:59,940
um but then I also I I found Jen Aldrich

565
00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:03,179
and I called him and man I mean I was on

566
00:22:06,409 --> 00:22:04,980
the phone with that guy for like two or

567
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:06,419
three times and each time it was like

568
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:09,600
two three hours and just listening to

569
00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:11,280
the comment like the way these people

570
00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:14,120
talk about the subject is the the

571
00:22:18,649 --> 00:22:16,440
command they have over it like I still

572
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:18,659
have to go back and look for dates every

573
00:22:22,610 --> 00:22:20,880
now and like like you know on certain

574
00:22:25,549 --> 00:22:22,620
cases these guys off the top of their

575
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:25,559
head know who's involved what time what

576
00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:26,820
day

577
00:22:32,570 --> 00:22:30,059
um the report number things like that uh

578
00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:32,580
oh red panda man I love I love red

579
00:22:36,529 --> 00:22:34,380
painted documentaries and honestly it's

580
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:36,539
another uh another

581
00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:38,100
sorry

582
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:40,020
it means the researcher you know someone

583
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,340
who's inspired me by the way he's

584
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:42,960
compiled some of the information in a

585
00:22:46,610 --> 00:22:44,880
way that's digestible

586
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:46,620
um so anyway so I call all these people

587
00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:49,200
and you know I made a timeline and I

588
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:51,179
remade the timeline and I have a whole

589
00:22:55,549 --> 00:22:52,740
timeline going from the beginning of

590
00:22:57,230 --> 00:22:55,559
project sign to the end of project sign

591
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:57,240
um and so once I got all this I went to

592
00:23:02,510 --> 00:23:00,780
John and at first we're like okay we we

593
00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:02,520
rewrote it

594
00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:05,940
again but like once John came on board

595
00:23:09,649 --> 00:23:08,159
he really brought it to another level

596
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:09,659
um it's just something that like I

597
00:23:13,610 --> 00:23:11,100
realized I can't do alone and I'm

598
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:13,620
blessed to have worked with uh with the

599
00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:15,299
people around me and like like you were

600
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:17,100
saying like how did I

601
00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:19,020
how did I get these people I just asked

602
00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:19,980
you know

603
00:23:24,529 --> 00:23:21,960
um Ezekiel I mean like I I have to pay

604
00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:24,539
pretty much everybody I paid Ezekiel uh

605
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:27,539
per page uh and then I found our cover

606
00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:28,760
artist

607
00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:32,520
who's phenomenal Gary Fletcher

608
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:35,100
um he gave me such an obscenely low rate

609
00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:36,960
for some of his work and like honestly

610
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:38,280
like I can't

611
00:23:42,770 --> 00:23:41,460
like like stuff like this you know

612
00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:42,780
um and then here's the other one that

613
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:44,760
everyone knows and he's got like six

614
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:46,740
more and so all these people together

615
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:49,440
really elevated this project and like I

616
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:51,360
could not have done it without them you

617
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:52,020
know

618
00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:54,480
um but short long story short I just

619
00:23:58,190 --> 00:23:56,220
asked and I think once people found out

620
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:58,200
I was serious about it

621
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:59,760
um with the material I had they were

622
00:24:02,930 --> 00:24:01,440
like okay yeah I'll help out or I'll be

623
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:02,940
a part of it

624
00:24:06,649 --> 00:24:04,620
there yeah there is this incredible

625
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:06,659
Spirit of generosity within this

626
00:24:09,770 --> 00:24:07,679
community

627
00:24:12,529 --> 00:24:09,780
um particularly if you approach people

628
00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:12,539
with good faith and openness right like

629
00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:13,860
you're not coming and swinging and

630
00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:16,500
denigrating anyone but instead are kind

631
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,260
of coming in with like I don't know a

632
00:24:23,270 --> 00:24:21,600
pure heart and pure intentions

633
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:23,280
um I've always been very impressed with

634
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:24,960
the willingness for people to assist

635
00:24:30,289 --> 00:24:28,559
provide resources jump on calls

636
00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:30,299
um and I think you know

637
00:24:36,110 --> 00:24:33,240
as well we're contending with people

638
00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:36,120
that are effectively the Old Guard of

639
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:38,340
ufology these are people

640
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:40,320
um later in their lives who are probably

641
00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:42,120
considering the kind of Legacy they want

642
00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:44,760
to have around these subjects

643
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,440
um and there many of them are very very

644
00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:48,240
serious researchers and Scholars you

645
00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:49,500
know even if they were never formally

646
00:24:54,169 --> 00:24:52,200
academics in any sense their Collections

647
00:24:55,370 --> 00:24:54,179
and work certainly rival the type of

648
00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:55,380
research that comes out of top

649
00:24:59,330 --> 00:24:57,299
universities like these are mostly lay

650
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:59,340
Scholars and researchers producing this

651
00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:00,480
work

652
00:25:03,289 --> 00:25:02,100
um and actually Michael swords was a

653
00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:03,299
professor I think he was at Michigan

654
00:25:08,210 --> 00:25:06,360
State University yeah yeah

655
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:08,220
um I think he was at MSU I don't want to

656
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:10,559
say he was a the wrong school because

657
00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:11,820
that's a big deal in the state of

658
00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:13,260
Michigan

659
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:14,460
um

660
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:19,559
they've done some extraordinary and

661
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:21,120
incredible work and it's so heartening

662
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:23,039
to hear as well that they've been able

663
00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:25,320
to complement your own work by providing

664
00:25:29,630 --> 00:25:27,900
information and resources to you as you

665
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,640
work on this project

666
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,679
oh yeah I mean like I said I couldn't

667
00:25:35,149 --> 00:25:33,360
have done it without them and like Wendy

668
00:25:36,529 --> 00:25:35,159
Connors to this day I think she was she

669
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,539
was like she's an angel because like

670
00:25:41,810 --> 00:25:38,640
without her this would have never gotten

671
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:41,820
so far and it now it became it's it's

672
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,380
less about like okay I want a really

673
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:45,360
cool UFO story that stays true to the

674
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:47,940
story because like the The Narrative is

675
00:25:51,169 --> 00:25:49,260
already strange enough you don't need to

676
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:51,179
embellish with bug aliens or whatever

677
00:25:56,810 --> 00:25:54,720
it's so crazy and our our response as a

678
00:25:59,210 --> 00:25:56,820
United States government like was so

679
00:26:00,649 --> 00:25:59,220
crazy but now it's almost like a

680
00:26:02,210 --> 00:26:00,659
personal mission like I want more people

681
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:02,220
to know about these guys I want more

682
00:26:06,350 --> 00:26:03,840
people to know about their work I want

683
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:06,360
more people to to know who they are and

684
00:26:09,529 --> 00:26:07,980
like unfortunately a lot of them are

685
00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:09,539
getting up there in age

686
00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:11,640
um health-wise they're not doing okay

687
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:15,000
some of them uh and and frankly like

688
00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:16,500
they don't want anything to do with the

689
00:26:19,970 --> 00:26:18,840
current state of ufology uh you know

690
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:19,980
they

691
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:22,799
the the like you said it's the old guard

692
00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:24,900
they're more strictly by the books by

693
00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:27,000
the historical record where now we see I

694
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,700
mean you can argue that like people like

695
00:26:32,990 --> 00:26:31,919
Tom Delong and lizondo we still do all

696
00:26:34,730 --> 00:26:33,000
of them in great favor because they

697
00:26:36,769 --> 00:26:34,740
brought this subject to the you know to

698
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,779
the Forefront basically

699
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,640
um but I have found that these older

700
00:26:42,289 --> 00:26:40,080
researchers don't want to be in the

701
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,299
Limelight they don't they just they're

702
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:44,159
so focused on completing the historical

703
00:26:48,289 --> 00:26:46,020
record that they just do not care about

704
00:26:51,470 --> 00:26:48,299
anything else and

705
00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:51,480
um it's it's a legacy it really is a

706
00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:53,340
legacy that they're leaving behind

707
00:26:57,049 --> 00:26:55,500
um and it's it's part of American like

708
00:26:59,870 --> 00:26:57,059
history you know that no one really

709
00:27:01,669 --> 00:26:59,880
talks about it's in 1947

710
00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:01,679
um and then you know he had 1952 but

711
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:04,440
specifically in 1947 when all of this

712
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:06,240
happened they don't teach this in

713
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,279
history books like if you if you tell

714
00:27:12,350 --> 00:27:10,559
someone the premise of like what went on

715
00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:12,360
that year you would think it's a Sci-Fi

716
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:15,059
novel right or like a pitch for a sci-fi

717
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,000
film but this actually happened and the

718
00:27:21,890 --> 00:27:20,159
older these researchers get the harder

719
00:27:23,710 --> 00:27:21,900
and harder it is to get these documents

720
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:23,720
and like John and I

721
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:26,220
we I mean we're up against the wall

722
00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:28,140
sometimes trying to get like a certain

723
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,820
piece of information a certain document

724
00:27:33,950 --> 00:27:32,159
to confirm this or whatever

725
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:33,960
um and it's only going to get harder so

726
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:35,700
it really is

727
00:27:39,529 --> 00:27:38,159
um like it's up to people who like us

728
00:27:40,909 --> 00:27:39,539
who like have an interest in it and be

729
00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:40,919
like we want to preserve that Legacy

730
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:42,600
we've got to do it in our own way you

731
00:27:48,049 --> 00:27:45,840
know and just just do it I guess is the

732
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:48,059
answer could we yeah we have to carry

733
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:50,880
the torch sorry Campbell go ahead yeah I

734
00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:52,320
was wondering can we take a second to

735
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:55,080
just lean into uh that uh thing you

736
00:27:59,930 --> 00:27:57,120
touched on there the Sci-Fi

737
00:28:02,810 --> 00:27:59,940
um film I'd love to hear a little brief

738
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:02,820
rundown of that exciting moment in

739
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:06,480
history from uh your uh perspective oh

740
00:28:12,049 --> 00:28:09,900
1947 I mean uh yes we do have to carry

741
00:28:15,169 --> 00:28:12,059
the torch uh and we do we should get

742
00:28:18,649 --> 00:28:15,179
back to that uh soon but I mean

743
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,659
basically we you know you uh in 46 you

744
00:28:22,190 --> 00:28:20,880
had these things um fly over Sweden

745
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:22,200
which were called ghost Rockets which

746
00:28:24,289 --> 00:28:23,279
the government couldn't find out what

747
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:24,299
they were

748
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,159
um and this is again this is like after

749
00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:29,039
World War II cold war is not official

750
00:28:33,049 --> 00:28:31,260
yet but the the tensions between us and

751
00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:33,059
the Soviet Union are there because it's

752
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:35,580
this gigantic land mass right and we

753
00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:37,919
have no idea what's going on and we have

754
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,020
all the paranoia in the world the people

755
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:42,720
uh like Curtis LeMay

756
00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:44,460
um forestall like I mean these are

757
00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:46,260
intensely paranoid people you know

758
00:28:52,669 --> 00:28:48,419
because they lived through World War II

759
00:28:54,590 --> 00:28:52,679
so 1947 rolls around and

760
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:54,600
this guy Kenneth Arnold well this guy

761
00:29:00,590 --> 00:28:57,000
Kenneth Arnold who um I think he sold

762
00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:00,600
fire extinguishers uh on a flight

763
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:02,580
sees these nine I believe it's nine

764
00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:03,659
objects

765
00:29:07,070 --> 00:29:05,220
um he didn't they weren't flying saucers

766
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:07,080
but the way he described them the the

767
00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:08,700
news kind of took that and ran with it

768
00:29:12,409 --> 00:29:10,919
it's like oh you saw a flying saucer or

769
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:12,419
whatever but you saw these nine objects

770
00:29:15,769 --> 00:29:14,220
that you couldn't explain and he was a

771
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:15,779
deeply patriotic guy and he just wanted

772
00:29:20,090 --> 00:29:18,240
to know what they were and what's

773
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:20,100
interesting is that his life ended up

774
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:22,559
being I wouldn't say ruin but like it

775
00:29:26,450 --> 00:29:25,140
was not the happiest ending for him

776
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:26,460
um because he wasn't he didn't want the

777
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:27,840
Limelight he didn't want to be part of

778
00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:30,360
this but he saw something reported it

779
00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:32,220
and all of a sudden now you're starting

780
00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:33,600
in corroborating reports of people

781
00:29:36,889 --> 00:29:35,460
who've seen it at that time or people

782
00:29:39,289 --> 00:29:36,899
who have also seen something very

783
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:39,299
similar over the country and now that's

784
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,240
that I believe that was June 28 1947. so

785
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:44,820
the newspapers run wild with it okay

786
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:45,840
cool

787
00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:47,580
um sort of dies down you know and the

788
00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:48,840
government like they don't really look

789
00:29:51,529 --> 00:29:50,340
into it much to Kenneth Arnold's

790
00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:51,539
frustration

791
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:52,620
um

792
00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:55,200
but uh I mean they kind of hoped that

793
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:57,600
when it was going to go away right so it

794
00:30:02,870 --> 00:29:59,039
kind of did go away started dying down

795
00:30:05,210 --> 00:30:02,880
July 2nd rolls around July 3rd and in

796
00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:05,220
July 4th there was this explosion across

797
00:30:08,750 --> 00:30:07,020
the country from July 4th I believe to

798
00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:08,760
like July 10th or something like that

799
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:12,360
just people seeing uh flying discs of

800
00:30:17,149 --> 00:30:14,760
sorts all over the country reporting it

801
00:30:19,730 --> 00:30:17,159
I mean some of these settings are so

802
00:30:21,889 --> 00:30:19,740
bizarre right but everybody was seeing

803
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:21,899
it so now the government had to to

804
00:30:26,269 --> 00:30:23,700
actually confront this and be like okay

805
00:30:28,850 --> 00:30:26,279
well are people seeing something is this

806
00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:28,860
psycho is this like a psychosocial thing

807
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,539
is this a social contagion did one guy

808
00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:32,399
see it and now it like you know it's a

809
00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:34,500
chain reaction everybody sees it

810
00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:36,120
um is it our projects that people are

811
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:38,039
seeing right or is it something foreign

812
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,020
so they they launch an investigation

813
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:42,480
into what this might have been

814
00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:45,000
so 47 was pretty crazy in a sense that

815
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:46,200
this was the first time we encountered

816
00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:47,640
something like this and our government

817
00:30:53,570 --> 00:30:49,740
was caught you know like flat-footed

818
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,580
basically uh so they we throw our best

819
00:30:57,049 --> 00:30:55,380
Engineers our Intelligence Officers at

820
00:30:59,510 --> 00:30:57,059
it people who who are responsible for

821
00:31:01,010 --> 00:30:59,520
bringing over uh you know Operation

822
00:31:04,010 --> 00:31:01,020
Paperclip

823
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:04,020
um some of the the tech in Germany uh

824
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:06,720
like really really uh qualified

825
00:31:11,930 --> 00:31:09,260
Personnel to figure out what this was

826
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:11,940
and it's funny because we see a shiz

827
00:31:16,450 --> 00:31:14,460
like a Schism now uh people in the

828
00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:16,460
Pentagon thought okay some guy's crazy

829
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:19,260
uh saw some I don't know a balloon or

830
00:31:21,889 --> 00:31:20,399
something like that and now everyone

831
00:31:24,350 --> 00:31:21,899
else is reporting it where you had other

832
00:31:26,570 --> 00:31:24,360
people being like Oh no this is this is

833
00:31:28,750 --> 00:31:26,580
something like this is this is not like

834
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:28,760
it's not a joke and into documents like

835
00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:31,679
they never treated this like

836
00:31:36,049 --> 00:31:33,480
they never treated this as if people

837
00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:36,059
weren't seeing an aircraft flying around

838
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,980
the country that that they didn't know

839
00:31:42,350 --> 00:31:39,600
what it was it was always like okay

840
00:31:44,330 --> 00:31:42,360
here's what it is uh it's you know a lot

841
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:44,340
of reports that's disk shaped has a dome

842
00:31:50,029 --> 00:31:48,000
top can accelerate uh like that you know

843
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:50,039
can hover like all these things that

844
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:53,460
like we're clearly not there in 1947.

845
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:56,640
um so they launched an investigation and

846
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:00,419
project sign our two main characters uh

847
00:32:07,070 --> 00:32:03,360
Alfred ludding and Albert dyerman uh so

848
00:32:09,049 --> 00:32:07,080
Alfred ludding is a he um I think he's

849
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:09,059
the chief of rocket propulsion over uh

850
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:10,860
Wright-Patterson at the time and then we

851
00:32:14,930 --> 00:32:12,539
had uh Albert dyerman who was

852
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:14,940
Intelligence officer who uh you know he

853
00:32:21,470 --> 00:32:18,000
did his in World War II and um he was a

854
00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:21,480
trusted guy from uh I think like McCoy

855
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:22,740
is one of his best friends at the time

856
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:26,220
who's uh under uh twiming at

857
00:32:29,210 --> 00:32:27,960
Wright-Patterson so they all come

858
00:32:30,769 --> 00:32:29,220
together and they're like okay look the

859
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,779
Pentagon to ask us with this we need to

860
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:32,640
find out what this is let's launch an

861
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:33,840
investigation

862
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:35,039
um so meanwhile sightings continue

863
00:32:39,049 --> 00:32:37,740
sightings pile up right and it goes from

864
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:39,059
okay

865
00:32:43,010 --> 00:32:41,760
it's not people just seeing this because

866
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:43,020
they they thought they saw in a

867
00:32:47,570 --> 00:32:45,600
newspaper to okay it's domestic it's got

868
00:32:49,370 --> 00:32:47,580
to be domestic project they go through

869
00:32:51,169 --> 00:32:49,380
all our domestic projects they go to

870
00:32:53,149 --> 00:32:51,179
Iran uh they go everywhere they can it

871
00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:53,159
comes out that it's not a domestic

872
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:54,659
project okay

873
00:32:58,970 --> 00:32:56,760
so the only other option is it's foreign

874
00:33:02,330 --> 00:32:58,980
so now the Pentagon throughout this time

875
00:33:05,649 --> 00:33:02,340
1947 1948 really wanted a Soviet answer

876
00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:05,659
they wanted hey tell us it's Russians

877
00:33:10,010 --> 00:33:07,620
we're not going to take any other answer

878
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:10,020
except it's Russians because they in

879
00:33:12,889 --> 00:33:11,159
their hearts they're like oh yeah we

880
00:33:14,269 --> 00:33:12,899
know it's Russians we know this is what

881
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:14,279
they're doing

882
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,299
um and what's interesting as a series of

883
00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:20,159
like you know goes through through its

884
00:33:24,049 --> 00:33:22,200
Paces you'll see that the Pentagon

885
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:24,059
really wants a Russian answer but

886
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:26,159
project sign slowly starts realizing

887
00:33:30,649 --> 00:33:27,840
they're not rushing either so now

888
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:30,659
they're butting heads right

889
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:33,360
um So eventually a project sign come to

890
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:34,860
this conclusion where okay they're

891
00:33:37,970 --> 00:33:36,480
interplanetary and they have to go and

892
00:33:40,009 --> 00:33:37,980
defend their position

893
00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:40,019
um with officials from the Pentagon and

894
00:33:45,950 --> 00:33:43,500
we all know how that goes so I mean I I

895
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:45,960
I I I went off many tangents there but

896
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:46,799
like

897
00:33:50,450 --> 00:33:49,440
case in point 1947 was a wild year

898
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:50,460
because it's the first time we

899
00:33:54,590 --> 00:33:52,500
experienced this phenomenon from a from

900
00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:54,600
a very virgin lens right and there was

901
00:33:58,250 --> 00:33:56,460
not a I mean we were pretty Advanced

902
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:58,260
back then but it's easier today to say

903
00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:00,419
hey that's a drone or maybe I don't know

904
00:34:06,350 --> 00:34:03,480
a hologram or whatnot right 1947 not so

905
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:06,360
much and that's very interesting

906
00:34:10,010 --> 00:34:07,860
right and it's not just Kenneth Arnold

907
00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:10,020
this is also when Roswell happens right

908
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:12,060
like this is yeah I think if this is

909
00:34:15,950 --> 00:34:13,919
like the major demarcation and first

910
00:34:18,169 --> 00:34:15,960
like American flap

911
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:18,179
um and regardless of like sentiment or

912
00:34:23,869 --> 00:34:20,879
belief associated with these events this

913
00:34:27,950 --> 00:34:23,879
also feels to me like it kicks off

914
00:34:30,169 --> 00:34:27,960
the UFO quote unquote is like being part

915
00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:30,179
of Americana right like I think there's

916
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:32,220
something so categorically American

917
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,560
about this whole subject and about this

918
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:37,200
phenomena and um

919
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:39,599
I feel like this is sort of its formal

920
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:42,240
entree into like the popular imagination

921
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:44,760
uh and into American culture and

922
00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:46,859
narrative and folklore

923
00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:49,020
yeah no it solidified itself in American

924
00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:50,700
culture and I think it's because the

925
00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:52,919
response was so visceral you know that

926
00:34:56,089 --> 00:34:53,879
like right

927
00:35:00,050 --> 00:34:56,099
um it ended up being in pop culture uh

928
00:35:01,790 --> 00:35:00,060
to this day uh it's I never heard

929
00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:01,800
someone put it that way it's part of

930
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:03,300
Americana but now they think about it

931
00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:05,280
but um I also want to stress this is a

932
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:07,500
worldwide phenomena at the time oh yeah

933
00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:10,320
it was it was all over the planet and uh

934
00:35:14,569 --> 00:35:12,300
we have documents from Hungary we have

935
00:35:18,349 --> 00:35:14,579
uh the Swiss the things that they were

936
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:18,359
encountering Japan so it I I think how

937
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:20,400
we responded to it and how how we

938
00:35:24,349 --> 00:35:22,140
injected into our pop culture is very

939
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:24,359
interesting as well yeah yeah I think

940
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:25,920
you're I think you're on to something

941
00:35:30,170 --> 00:35:28,020
here where I think my association with

942
00:35:33,470 --> 00:35:30,180
it being a uniquely American phenomena

943
00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:33,480
is just because we integrated it so

944
00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:35,940
quickly into our pop culture in like our

945
00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:39,060
visions of entertainment and media

946
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:40,920
um but you're absolutely right in fact I

947
00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:43,680
have uh Graham gram Rendell is on my

948
00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:45,660
list to have on the show as well because

949
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:47,700
of his work dude he's amazing when I met

950
00:35:50,510 --> 00:35:48,960
him in New York I thought he was just

951
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:50,520
such a treasure

952
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:51,839
um and I would love the chance to have

953
00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:54,420
him on to talk about historic cases

954
00:35:58,490 --> 00:35:56,280
uh he's one of those people carrying the

955
00:36:00,109 --> 00:35:58,500
torch man you talk to him and he will he

956
00:36:02,510 --> 00:36:00,119
has such a command on the subject he

957
00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:02,520
also has an aviation background so he

958
00:36:07,010 --> 00:36:05,339
also I I have to credit he he um he

959
00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:07,020
helped us a lot too like when we had

960
00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:08,280
questions about certain people certain

961
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,020
personnel and we had an aviation

962
00:36:14,450 --> 00:36:12,480
question I mean he he just responded

963
00:36:16,430 --> 00:36:14,460
right away and we also asked him far

964
00:36:18,530 --> 00:36:16,440
forward he wrote that within like that

965
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,540
night and it's so good

966
00:36:23,329 --> 00:36:20,400
um he really he's somebody that's really

967
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:23,339
Earnest really honest and and you can

968
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,440
tell it's always passionate about it you

969
00:36:29,089 --> 00:36:26,880
know

970
00:36:30,589 --> 00:36:29,099
yeah I was I was deeply deeply impressed

971
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:30,599
by him when I met him in New York in

972
00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:32,640
December um I ate dinner with him and

973
00:36:35,569 --> 00:36:33,960
shared some drinks and thought it was

974
00:36:38,030 --> 00:36:35,579
just a real stand-up guy who's done

975
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:38,040
basically the humans work on this

976
00:36:42,109 --> 00:36:40,260
subject right in in writing these books

977
00:36:43,490 --> 00:36:42,119
doing historic research and then also

978
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:43,500
supporting like you mentioned other

979
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:45,000
people in the community in their own

980
00:36:47,810 --> 00:36:46,320
Ventures

981
00:36:48,890 --> 00:36:47,820
um yeah I think very I think the world

982
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:48,900
of own

983
00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:50,400
yeah I would feel really bad if I didn't

984
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:53,940
plug his book uh is so good it's like

985
00:36:58,730 --> 00:36:55,920
it's so good and the cover art is

986
00:37:01,130 --> 00:36:58,740
amazing like because the book itself is

987
00:37:03,950 --> 00:37:01,140
great but the art is amazing too

988
00:37:05,569 --> 00:37:03,960
yeah we met him in New York and honestly

989
00:37:07,010 --> 00:37:05,579
like we couldn't stop we couldn't stop

990
00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:07,020
talking to him John especially and

991
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,540
John's really funny because John uh John

992
00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:12,000
is a non-believer or was a non-believer

993
00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:13,740
um so I compiled all the stuff came to

994
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:15,660
him and he's like okay there's a story

995
00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:18,180
here I like this let's work on it

996
00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:21,180
um so we did and uh over the course of I

997
00:37:27,050 --> 00:37:24,540
think two three months he went from okay

998
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:27,060
something happened uh there was

999
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,320
something flying around and they

1000
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:30,720
couldn't figure out what it was we still

1001
00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:33,119
differ on what that might have been but

1002
00:37:37,730 --> 00:37:35,880
he's crossed a line from okay this is

1003
00:37:39,230 --> 00:37:37,740
all just like BS to now it's like oh

1004
00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:39,240
[\h__\h] this is this is something no one

1005
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:41,160
talks about but it's clearly recorded

1006
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:42,960
you know and documented for everybody to

1007
00:37:45,890 --> 00:37:43,920
see

1008
00:37:47,329 --> 00:37:45,900
um so I think that lends to having that

1009
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:47,339
having him on the writer scene is

1010
00:37:50,569 --> 00:37:48,960
awesome because

1011
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:50,579
um when we're writing and we'll pitch

1012
00:37:55,069 --> 00:37:53,280
ideas and we'll get in on a heat

1013
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:55,079
I can get a little

1014
00:37:58,910 --> 00:37:56,880
out there and he'll bring me back down

1015
00:38:00,410 --> 00:37:58,920
to reality and and kind of like ground

1016
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,420
me in a sense where it's like no like

1017
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:02,160
it's it's don't portray the subject

1018
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:03,839
matter by embellishing let's let's just

1019
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,720
keep it the way it is well and dude

1020
00:38:10,250 --> 00:38:08,400
you're giving me an amazing segue right

1021
00:38:13,370 --> 00:38:10,260
now to talk about

1022
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,380
um the the work itself so I have I have

1023
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,599
two copies here

1024
00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:17,040
um I've read this one I have not read

1025
00:38:21,170 --> 00:38:18,839
this one as evidenced by the fact that

1026
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:21,180
it's still and you're used to that that

1027
00:38:24,770 --> 00:38:22,560
one's just the difference is that that

1028
00:38:25,609 --> 00:38:24,780
one's in color and this one isn't

1029
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:25,619
um

1030
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:27,599
but one of the things that struck me so

1031
00:38:30,109 --> 00:38:29,400
much was that

1032
00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:30,119
um

1033
00:38:36,589 --> 00:38:34,140
it is uh how do I put this this is very

1034
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:36,599
much a graphic novel

1035
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:40,260
um for graphic novel and comic people

1036
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:43,859
um and it has an air of credibility and

1037
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:46,560
legitimacy that I was delighted and very

1038
00:38:51,050 --> 00:38:49,140
happy to see because I feel like

1039
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:51,060
something like this like the work you're

1040
00:38:55,310 --> 00:38:52,920
doing on this project is what will bring

1041
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,320
people that have otherwise only had a

1042
00:39:00,170 --> 00:38:57,839
passing Curiosity on the subject into

1043
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:00,180
the fold and to pursue it and I say that

1044
00:39:05,690 --> 00:39:03,240
because it's obvious and very clear that

1045
00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:05,700
the research done to support the work on

1046
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,660
this is extremely detailed and

1047
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:11,040
verifiable

1048
00:39:17,329 --> 00:39:14,880
and also that you took this task very

1049
00:39:19,130 --> 00:39:17,339
seriously of only using documented

1050
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,140
research and constructing the narrative

1051
00:39:24,589 --> 00:39:21,839
and the storyline and the materials it

1052
00:39:27,290 --> 00:39:24,599
contains so I want to give you just you

1053
00:39:28,910 --> 00:39:27,300
know so much respect for that

1054
00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:28,920
um I was wondering if you could just

1055
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,140
tell us a little bit about uh where the

1056
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:33,839
title comes from and

1057
00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:36,060
um how you've like kind of where you're

1058
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,180
going with the project because okay

1059
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:41,760
I just have this first volume here and I

1060
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:43,920
when I when I I do want to say too when

1061
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:45,780
I asked for questions today on Twitter I

1062
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:47,040
got a lot of questions about when the

1063
00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:48,720
next one's coming out so we definitely

1064
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:50,540
have fans out there

1065
00:39:54,349 --> 00:39:53,040
it's still I'm still getting used to it

1066
00:39:56,450 --> 00:39:54,359
um but like honestly like I just got

1067
00:39:58,370 --> 00:39:56,460
like uh

1068
00:40:00,530 --> 00:39:58,380
like a really nice feeling I don't know

1069
00:40:03,530 --> 00:40:00,540
like that's exactly the response we

1070
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:03,540
wanted you know that's exactly like we

1071
00:40:08,030 --> 00:40:05,700
we wanted to take it seriously and we

1072
00:40:09,410 --> 00:40:08,040
wanted um we wanted to come across like

1073
00:40:12,050 --> 00:40:09,420
hey we want to tell a compelling story

1074
00:40:13,069 --> 00:40:12,060
obviously because like you keep if you

1075
00:40:16,849 --> 00:40:13,079
don't have that you don't have anything

1076
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:16,859
but be in like that that the research is

1077
00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:19,200
so detailed that it'll introduce people

1078
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:21,420
to the topic like you said it's also for

1079
00:40:25,069 --> 00:40:23,220
comic book readers but once they read it

1080
00:40:26,930 --> 00:40:25,079
all the people are there all the

1081
00:40:28,370 --> 00:40:26,940
documents are there as well they're we

1082
00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:28,380
kind of Cl I feel like we're clever in

1083
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:31,140
how we packed it in there but people can

1084
00:40:34,910 --> 00:40:33,660
take that and look it up themselves and

1085
00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:34,920
I think it's it's one of those things

1086
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:36,420
where it's um

1087
00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:38,940
that's that's kind of the greater goal

1088
00:40:42,849 --> 00:40:41,220
here is to kind of expose people to this

1089
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:42,859
phenomenon in a way that doesn't

1090
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:45,240
ridicule it or doesn't like make it into

1091
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:47,640
this nonsensical Affair

1092
00:40:51,109 --> 00:40:49,680
um it really warms my heart that you

1093
00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:51,119
said that's exactly the response we

1094
00:40:54,430 --> 00:40:52,260
wanted

1095
00:40:59,930 --> 00:40:57,170
it spoke to me too because like when we

1096
00:41:02,710 --> 00:40:59,940
started ins like the founding kind of

1097
00:41:08,210 --> 00:41:02,720
first principle was

1098
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,220
this sense that the subject requires an

1099
00:41:12,290 --> 00:41:10,560
elevation of How It's discussed and

1100
00:41:14,329 --> 00:41:12,300
approached yeah

1101
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:14,339
um and I and I think also like to Circle

1102
00:41:17,450 --> 00:41:15,900
back on something we were talking about

1103
00:41:19,970 --> 00:41:17,460
previously

1104
00:41:22,670 --> 00:41:19,980
um I know I'm certainly want to think of

1105
00:41:25,730 --> 00:41:22,680
UFO Twitter as being exactly equal to

1106
00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:25,740
ufology and it's not like I you know and

1107
00:41:31,069 --> 00:41:28,980
I say that to also say that it can be

1108
00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:31,079
very easy to have something of a myopic

1109
00:41:34,490 --> 00:41:32,579
view when you're online all the time

1110
00:41:35,930 --> 00:41:34,500
talking to other people on UFO Twitter

1111
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:35,940
or online

1112
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:38,520
and sort of forget that like 99 of this

1113
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,260
subject doesn't take place on UFO

1114
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:42,720
Twitter it takes place in like you know

1115
00:41:46,849 --> 00:41:45,119
old guys houses every year or it takes

1116
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:46,859
place at conferences or it takes place

1117
00:41:52,670 --> 00:41:50,280
in like Usenet groups from like 1997 and

1118
00:41:53,870 --> 00:41:52,680
old Art Bell episodes and things like

1119
00:42:02,089 --> 00:41:53,880
that

1120
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:02,099
um you know we were really focused on

1121
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:03,839
trying to elevate the conversation and

1122
00:42:07,970 --> 00:42:05,640
the quality and legitimacy of the

1123
00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:07,980
conversations that are going on uh in

1124
00:42:11,089 --> 00:42:09,780
and around this subject and that's part

1125
00:42:13,250 --> 00:42:11,099
of the reason I really wanted to call

1126
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:13,260
out your work because

1127
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:16,079
um it felt to me like I said like a

1128
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:19,380
degree of legitimacy and seriousness

1129
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:20,940
um brought to the subject that is so

1130
00:42:24,109 --> 00:42:22,619
desperately needed

1131
00:42:25,849 --> 00:42:24,119
um and then that's how you kind of win

1132
00:42:29,089 --> 00:42:25,859
people over to the subject by treating

1133
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:29,099
it seriously and legitimately because in

1134
00:42:34,250 --> 00:42:31,680
turn the people who read the work will

1135
00:42:36,349 --> 00:42:34,260
also treat it seriously and legitimately

1136
00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:36,359
yeah absolutely and again like like

1137
00:42:40,609 --> 00:42:39,000
thank you that's that's that's the exact

1138
00:42:41,569 --> 00:42:40,619
goal like we set out when we made this

1139
00:42:44,569 --> 00:42:41,579
project

1140
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:44,579
um and as far as words we're headed with

1141
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:46,440
it so we are halfway done with number

1142
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:47,280
two

1143
00:42:53,170 --> 00:42:49,200
um so this is we are some very small

1144
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:53,180
team it's John I Ezekiel and uh Fletcher

1145
00:42:59,089 --> 00:42:57,720
so uh we this first issue like we I

1146
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:59,099
don't know how we did it we did it on

1147
00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:01,200
lunch breaks we met in coffee shops like

1148
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:03,180
on our days off you know

1149
00:43:06,770 --> 00:43:05,160
um and and now we're starting to to to

1150
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:06,780
kind of get the ball rolling a little

1151
00:43:10,910 --> 00:43:09,599
bit more so we sold out of the original

1152
00:43:12,890 --> 00:43:10,920
black and white

1153
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:12,900
uh so that's not going to be printed

1154
00:43:18,829 --> 00:43:16,140
ever again uh I went overseas so we have

1155
00:43:21,770 --> 00:43:18,839
a um we have 4 000 copies of the color

1156
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:21,780
ones coming in uh in a couple months and

1157
00:43:24,829 --> 00:43:23,640
after that we're gonna roll out with

1158
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,839
number two

1159
00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:26,640
um and then subsequently three four five

1160
00:43:30,770 --> 00:43:29,460
uh all the way up till eight and we're

1161
00:43:32,210 --> 00:43:30,780
finding that the more we do it the

1162
00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:32,220
faster it gets

1163
00:43:36,349 --> 00:43:34,020
um but we just like we're so focused on

1164
00:43:37,790 --> 00:43:36,359
completing the series and an

1165
00:43:40,670 --> 00:43:37,800
interestingness thing that's happened is

1166
00:43:42,890 --> 00:43:40,680
we attracted like some attention from um

1167
00:43:44,569 --> 00:43:42,900
uh I don't say like Studios or anything

1168
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:44,579
like that but like people who are in

1169
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,520
that world so while working on this I'm

1170
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:49,680
building pitch decks for maybe like an

1171
00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:51,480
animated series based on this and also a

1172
00:43:58,490 --> 00:43:54,660
live action like because we have not I

1173
00:44:01,609 --> 00:43:58,500
mean we have like a good UFO movie that

1174
00:44:02,990 --> 00:44:01,619
treats this seriously you know we're

1175
00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:03,000
going back to like The Day the Earth

1176
00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:04,380
Stood Still if that's what we really

1177
00:44:09,650 --> 00:44:07,380
want you know like like we are long

1178
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:09,660
overdue for popular media yeah it wasn't

1179
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:12,480
just turn it into a jokey [\h__\h] mess

1180
00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:15,359
yeah and like to go to the to where this

1181
00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:17,099
started I think is so interesting

1182
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,420
because I think a lot of people we're

1183
00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:20,400
gonna start going back you know we're uh

1184
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:22,140
in general everyone to start like they

1185
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:24,000
don't know too much about these cases uh

1186
00:44:26,930 --> 00:44:25,680
to begin with but like the more you go

1187
00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:26,940
back and the more you see like the

1188
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,020
efforts that the government put into

1189
00:44:32,450 --> 00:44:30,960
actually find out what this was

1190
00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:32,460
um there's a treasure Trove of

1191
00:44:37,069 --> 00:44:33,960
information there

1192
00:44:38,690 --> 00:44:37,079
um and again like to to um to be able to

1193
00:44:40,849 --> 00:44:38,700
make something you know I wanted to

1194
00:44:42,290 --> 00:44:40,859
contribute somehow and when we did this

1195
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:42,300
I know a lot of people start like

1196
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:43,920
kickstarters and stuff like that we

1197
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:45,960
didn't take any money from anybody

1198
00:44:49,970 --> 00:44:47,280
um this has all been funded out of

1199
00:44:53,390 --> 00:44:49,980
pocket uh to my

1200
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,400
detriment but um dude I hear you passion

1201
00:44:57,950 --> 00:44:56,400
projects are not cheap no man it's like

1202
00:44:59,450 --> 00:44:57,960
I have to I try to make sure you know

1203
00:45:01,790 --> 00:44:59,460
everyone gets paid the rate that like

1204
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:01,800
they ask for um so I work a lot of

1205
00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:04,500
overtime I pick up jobs that like like I

1206
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:05,880
normally wouldn't do just to be able to

1207
00:45:10,970 --> 00:45:08,460
pay for three more pages or or you know

1208
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,980
like issue number five or whatever

1209
00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:12,480
um but we have the whole thing mapped

1210
00:45:17,150 --> 00:45:14,940
out and now it's just like honestly

1211
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:17,160
um it's getting the artists to to

1212
00:45:20,329 --> 00:45:18,780
complete the work

1213
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,339
um getting it printed which is

1214
00:45:23,870 --> 00:45:22,079
logistically a nightmare because we have

1215
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:23,880
to go overseas because to print it here

1216
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:27,420
like for instance to print 4 000 copies

1217
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:30,300
um in China versus printing 400 copies

1218
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:32,880
domestically so four thousand and four

1219
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:34,440
hundred it's cheaper to do it in China

1220
00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:38,640
with 1800 shipping blew my mind

1221
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:40,440
um so logistically dealing with that and

1222
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:42,780
then like like we we've we've kind of

1223
00:45:46,670 --> 00:45:44,640
backed ourselves in a corner in a sense

1224
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,680
where we're now like

1225
00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:48,720
like we have a whole distribution chain

1226
00:45:54,290 --> 00:45:51,180
like we set up a warehouse with air

1227
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,300
house uh that they have like a warehouse

1228
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:56,400
uh near here so those copies get shipped

1229
00:45:59,510 --> 00:45:58,079
over there then they care about take

1230
00:46:02,210 --> 00:45:59,520
care of all the shipping and the packing

1231
00:46:03,770 --> 00:46:02,220
and like we're still getting used to it

1232
00:46:05,690 --> 00:46:03,780
because this is again something we did

1233
00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:05,700
like like I always use the metaphor it's

1234
00:46:09,710 --> 00:46:07,319
like two dudes in the basement that just

1235
00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:09,720
yeah we're reading and writing yeah

1236
00:46:15,470 --> 00:46:11,160
you're building a plane as you're flying

1237
00:46:17,690 --> 00:46:15,480
it yeah yeah so I mean like we were late

1238
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:17,700
on some shipments and like I I tried to

1239
00:46:20,990 --> 00:46:19,200
even like some of those people I gave

1240
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:21,000
them like a cool display which like a

1241
00:46:25,609 --> 00:46:23,400
magnetic poster with some artwork just

1242
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:25,619
to make up for it like um like we're

1243
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:27,839
doing the best we can and when we sold

1244
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:30,720
out like I cannot thank everybody enough

1245
00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:33,780
like it really I I thought there was a

1246
00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:35,339
point where we can't do this anymore

1247
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,020
it's too much too much of a strain on

1248
00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:39,359
our budgets on our time but once it's

1249
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:41,460
sold out as quick as it did we're like

1250
00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:43,920
holy crap people like this people want

1251
00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:46,200
this all right and like we didn't make

1252
00:46:49,490 --> 00:46:47,520
too much money off of it we were able to

1253
00:46:51,230 --> 00:46:49,500
get like some of it back to the artists

1254
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:51,240
I I gave people like a bonus in

1255
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:52,560
Christmas and I'm like I have to

1256
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:54,960
apologize I'm so sorry it's so small but

1257
00:46:58,250 --> 00:46:56,400
like you know

1258
00:47:01,730 --> 00:46:58,260
um we took that money and basically made

1259
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:01,740
sure everyone was okay and had a little

1260
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,040
bit of runway for the second one but um

1261
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:07,440
oh God I forgot what my point was

1262
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:08,720
um

1263
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:11,160
you're doing this like bootstrap style

1264
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:12,960
you're doing this as a real passion

1265
00:47:17,210 --> 00:47:14,880
project you're doing all of the parts

1266
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:17,220
and components yourself

1267
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,540
um I just want to let you know I did

1268
00:47:24,410 --> 00:47:20,480
share a link to

1269
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:24,420
blacktailabs.nyc shop in the chat

1270
00:47:28,010 --> 00:47:26,280
um awesome so yeah because we have a

1271
00:47:30,650 --> 00:47:28,020
bunch of people in the comments that are

1272
00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:30,660
interested in picking up a copy

1273
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,480
um and uh I know I have I have the same

1274
00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:35,280
ones that how do we say this we were

1275
00:47:41,630 --> 00:47:37,460
talking in the green room is it for Gina

1276
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:41,640
Virgina Virginia okay well that's an

1277
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,099
iPhone James fox says it yeah

1278
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,079
um it looks like you have that but um it

1279
00:47:50,089 --> 00:47:48,000
sounds like you have additional prints

1280
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:50,099
of this first issue coming in soon as

1281
00:47:53,809 --> 00:47:51,119
well

1282
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:53,819
yeah so what's what's on the website now

1283
00:47:58,250 --> 00:47:56,280
and um the Roswell cover you have I'm

1284
00:48:00,050 --> 00:47:58,260
also going to put up uh that we're only

1285
00:48:02,450 --> 00:48:00,060
gonna put up like five of those so that

1286
00:48:06,109 --> 00:48:02,460
in the Virginia cover are basically like

1287
00:48:10,670 --> 00:48:06,119
fundraising mechanisms where it's yeah

1288
00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:10,680
so Virginia it's expensive in a sense

1289
00:48:14,750 --> 00:48:12,900
um where we're charging 75 for it but

1290
00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:14,760
that goes straight to the project our

1291
00:48:21,050 --> 00:48:17,339
other Edition was I believe

1292
00:48:22,670 --> 00:48:21,060
um it was 24.99 or or maybe 29.99 and

1293
00:48:25,010 --> 00:48:22,680
again this is just it's a collector's

1294
00:48:27,410 --> 00:48:25,020
edition versus just a standard graphic

1295
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:27,420
novel and we still we still came out

1296
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:29,220
like in the red you know we still end up

1297
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:31,680
owing money even though we sold out but

1298
00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:33,839
these are just basically to fund us on

1299
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,819
to continue the project

1300
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:37,200
um because I know the price is a little

1301
00:48:39,890 --> 00:48:38,880
egregious but like the new shipments

1302
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:39,900
coming in

1303
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:42,060
um since we got a really good deal on

1304
00:48:46,490 --> 00:48:44,160
like a bigger qual quantity we're

1305
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,500
bringing that down so we're gonna bring

1306
00:48:50,750 --> 00:48:48,480
it down to like a standard graphic novel

1307
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,760
price uh and those are gonna come in

1308
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:52,800
probably four to six weeks so there's a

1309
00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:54,300
little bit of time gives us a bit of

1310
00:48:57,170 --> 00:48:55,980
time to get issues two and three ready

1311
00:48:58,670 --> 00:48:57,180
to go

1312
00:49:01,069 --> 00:48:58,680
um because we cannot wait for issue two

1313
00:49:02,569 --> 00:49:01,079
and three specifically three where [\h__\h]

1314
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:02,579
is the fan

1315
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:05,040
um and uh how many how many issues do

1316
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:07,200
you envision this series being

1317
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:10,740
so on I have um I think on the the

1318
00:49:14,809 --> 00:49:12,660
Roswell one it has a layout of all the

1319
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:14,819
the covers that we have we we see it

1320
00:49:19,010 --> 00:49:17,040
being eight issues we'll be happy if

1321
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:19,020
it's done between six and eight issues

1322
00:49:23,630 --> 00:49:21,420
and we have it right now storyboarded

1323
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:23,640
and planned out for six to eight issues

1324
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:25,260
um it's just a matter of honestly like

1325
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:29,520
getting time uh hopefully you know one

1326
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,200
of us can quit our jobs and work on this

1327
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,440
full-time and like pump them out faster

1328
00:49:37,550 --> 00:49:35,760
uh but we just want to make sure we do

1329
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:37,560
it right I think that's also like part

1330
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:39,119
of the hold up for the second and third

1331
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:41,400
issue is like we want to make sure we

1332
00:49:45,950 --> 00:49:42,960
get this right we don't want to just put

1333
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:45,960
out like a like a BS product throw some

1334
00:49:51,290 --> 00:49:47,940
UFOs on there and expect people to buy

1335
00:49:53,630 --> 00:49:51,300
it we want people to to actually enjoy

1336
00:49:55,069 --> 00:49:53,640
the story and and in a way that we would

1337
00:49:57,829 --> 00:49:55,079
like we're basically making something we

1338
00:49:59,690 --> 00:49:57,839
want to read and see on TV you know and

1339
00:50:03,050 --> 00:49:59,700
I feel like that's always the best way

1340
00:50:06,349 --> 00:50:03,060
um and again like we're not this is our

1341
00:50:07,790 --> 00:50:06,359
first comic book ever right so like uh

1342
00:50:09,290 --> 00:50:07,800
if anything

1343
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:09,300
um it's not gloating or anything like

1344
00:50:14,329 --> 00:50:11,280
that but like it's everybody else like

1345
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:14,339
you put Twitter uh is so talented like

1346
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:16,260
like you guys put this together you have

1347
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:18,180
people on every week actually discussing

1348
00:50:21,050 --> 00:50:19,980
the topic Lisa like elevating it to a

1349
00:50:22,490 --> 00:50:21,060
certain point

1350
00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:22,500
um Everybody contributes in their own

1351
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:25,140
way right I I feel like you just have to

1352
00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:27,599
do it just get the ball rolling and like

1353
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:29,160
people like you said are willing to

1354
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,960
pitch in and help out once they see that

1355
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,880
like hey you know like they're taking it

1356
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:34,319
seriously they're putting their effort

1357
00:50:41,390 --> 00:50:37,920
into it um how can I contribute and uh

1358
00:50:44,089 --> 00:50:41,400
yeah just just do it

1359
00:50:46,010 --> 00:50:44,099
yeah and we had a red panda koala here

1360
00:50:48,829 --> 00:50:46,020
earlier and he even else jumps into the

1361
00:50:50,450 --> 00:50:48,839
uh old uh original documents as well and

1362
00:50:53,089 --> 00:50:50,460
I've read a lot of them too and I really

1363
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:53,099
like that you're focused in on those

1364
00:50:56,569 --> 00:50:54,720
details because they are some of the

1365
00:50:58,010 --> 00:50:56,579
most interesting of this whole Saga

1366
00:51:00,049 --> 00:50:58,020
because those are available before

1367
00:51:03,230 --> 00:51:00,059
Freedom of Information laws came out so

1368
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:03,240
we got a real nice view at what these

1369
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:05,640
agencies are thinking inside uh

1370
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,440
themselves

1371
00:51:11,630 --> 00:51:09,359
um and I'm just wondering uh we had a

1372
00:51:14,329 --> 00:51:11,640
neat question here from Steve long he

1373
00:51:15,950 --> 00:51:14,339
was asking if you have any ideas of what

1374
00:51:17,089 --> 00:51:15,960
you think your observation was because

1375
00:51:19,309 --> 00:51:17,099
when you were mentioning about going

1376
00:51:21,290 --> 00:51:19,319
back to the beginnings it brought to

1377
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:21,300
mind when you described this uh project

1378
00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:24,720
uh twinkle uh about the green fireballs

1379
00:51:29,329 --> 00:51:27,240
and things like that and how they were

1380
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:29,339
seeing kind of these uh green objects

1381
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:30,480
and then Jay Allen heineck his

1382
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:31,980
descriptions and UFO experience we're

1383
00:51:36,049 --> 00:51:34,559
describing these green objects that

1384
00:51:37,370 --> 00:51:36,059
sometimes morphed and things like that

1385
00:51:39,950 --> 00:51:37,380
so I'm curious what your thoughts are

1386
00:51:41,930 --> 00:51:39,960
about what you might have seen yourself

1387
00:51:44,569 --> 00:51:41,940
well project wiggle did come to mind

1388
00:51:46,990 --> 00:51:44,579
when uh like once I started doing like

1389
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:47,000
this research and I read about twinkle

1390
00:51:51,290 --> 00:51:49,440
and I kind of was like oh that might

1391
00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:51,300
have been it but I mean I have no idea

1392
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:53,760
I'll be really honest it I know is it

1393
00:51:57,470 --> 00:51:55,680
moved in a way that didn't move like

1394
00:51:59,390 --> 00:51:57,480
anything I knew

1395
00:52:00,890 --> 00:51:59,400
um at first I I thought it was a little

1396
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:00,900
crazy but like you know I had three

1397
00:52:04,730 --> 00:52:02,640
people next to me and we all like we

1398
00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:04,740
watched this in silence like the awe was

1399
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:06,780
kind of cool and then finally I think

1400
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:09,359
Kenneth was a friend of mine uh he was

1401
00:52:14,089 --> 00:52:11,520
just like are you guys seeing this we're

1402
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:14,099
like yeah you know like what is that

1403
00:52:17,690 --> 00:52:16,079
um I don't know I just know it wasn't a

1404
00:52:20,210 --> 00:52:17,700
satellite I'd been up to Cherry Springs

1405
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:20,220
so many times with telescopes cameras

1406
00:52:24,290 --> 00:52:22,440
things like that so like you know when

1407
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,300
you see something like far up in the sky

1408
00:52:29,089 --> 00:52:26,160
like there might be a meteor or

1409
00:52:31,609 --> 00:52:29,099
something this was on the horizon almost

1410
00:52:34,010 --> 00:52:31,619
and it just

1411
00:52:36,049 --> 00:52:34,020
I can't tell you I I really can't tell

1412
00:52:37,490 --> 00:52:36,059
you I I just know it was weird and it's

1413
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,500
always stuck with me like hey man I

1414
00:52:42,049 --> 00:52:38,880
think I might have actually seen a UFO

1415
00:52:44,329 --> 00:52:42,059
you know like legit which uh it's kind

1416
00:52:49,730 --> 00:52:44,339
of cool but at the same time you know I

1417
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:51,410
it's awesome

1418
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,079
um

1419
00:52:56,030 --> 00:52:54,480
so I'm a little bit of a comic person or

1420
00:52:57,770 --> 00:52:56,040
graphic novel I don't know I always just

1421
00:53:00,170 --> 00:52:57,780
call them Comics but I know that that

1422
00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:00,180
can be a point of contention with comic

1423
00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:03,180
people or graphic novel people

1424
00:53:08,270 --> 00:53:04,740
um

1425
00:53:12,109 --> 00:53:08,280
been inspired by any particular series

1426
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:12,119
or artists in this work oh yeah oh yeah

1427
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:14,700
um so I was a big Spider-Man fan growing

1428
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:18,240
up uh I'm from Queens originally so I I

1429
00:53:21,710 --> 00:53:19,920
loved Peter Parker

1430
00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:21,720
um I love Mark bagley's run on

1431
00:53:26,210 --> 00:53:23,160
Spider-Man who's an artist

1432
00:53:28,130 --> 00:53:26,220
uh and then I loved bendis's run on

1433
00:53:30,170 --> 00:53:28,140
Ultimate Spider-Man who also teamed up

1434
00:53:32,270 --> 00:53:30,180
with Mark Bagley what I think is a

1435
00:53:34,430 --> 00:53:32,280
definitive Spider-Man Duo

1436
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:34,440
um and what was interesting about that

1437
00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:36,720
is Bendis took the Spider-man Mythos

1438
00:53:42,109 --> 00:53:40,260
that the the origin story and he kind of

1439
00:53:43,730 --> 00:53:42,119
they branched off into like this

1440
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:43,740
ultimate lot Universe which they

1441
00:53:50,450 --> 00:53:45,839
rebooted everything but it was separate

1442
00:53:52,730 --> 00:53:50,460
from the main and he gave the the story

1443
00:53:54,530 --> 00:53:52,740
like a level

1444
00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:54,540
I don't know if credibility is a right

1445
00:53:58,430 --> 00:53:56,760
word but it just there was a tone shift

1446
00:54:00,109 --> 00:53:58,440
where this was a little more serious a

1447
00:54:02,030 --> 00:54:00,119
little more practical and like if you've

1448
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:02,040
watched any of the Marvel films they

1449
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:04,020
borrow a lot from Bendis and this

1450
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:05,520
universe because they kind of grounded

1451
00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:07,440
it in a reality where it's like oh this

1452
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:10,079
could have happened and the dialogue

1453
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,520
and of course you'll get people to say

1454
00:54:16,010 --> 00:54:13,920
like oh well Ben this sucks or whatever

1455
00:54:17,329 --> 00:54:16,020
but I found it to be pretty good it was

1456
00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:17,339
Snappy

1457
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:19,619
um I love I love John Hickman's Secret

1458
00:54:25,970 --> 00:54:22,319
Wars I think uh

1459
00:54:27,710 --> 00:54:25,980
oh man yeah John Hickman did a Manhattan

1460
00:54:30,530 --> 00:54:27,720
Project

1461
00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:30,540
I don't know I don't know one sec no no

1462
00:54:33,410 --> 00:54:32,040
I'm gonna have to look this up because I

1463
00:54:36,170 --> 00:54:33,420
feel like I've read something of his

1464
00:54:38,089 --> 00:54:36,180
he's very prolific he is a brilliant

1465
00:54:39,890 --> 00:54:38,099
writer I mean what he's doing with X-Men

1466
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:39,900
right now is ridiculous uh I actually

1467
00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:42,000
got to the meeting at my Comic Con

1468
00:54:46,190 --> 00:54:44,280
um yeah yeah he did Manhattan projects

1469
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:46,200
He did Manhattan projects that's what I

1470
00:54:49,730 --> 00:54:47,599
thought

1471
00:54:51,770 --> 00:54:49,740
yeah it's pretty good

1472
00:54:54,589 --> 00:54:51,780
um it has like some of the like more

1473
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,599
like esoteric weird woo-woo like sci-fi

1474
00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:56,400
stuff against the backdrop of World War

1475
00:55:00,109 --> 00:54:58,020
II I only read the first couple trades

1476
00:55:02,450 --> 00:55:00,119
of it uh probably about six or seven

1477
00:55:04,730 --> 00:55:02,460
years ago but it's super cool yeah he's

1478
00:55:06,530 --> 00:55:04,740
he's a really cool guy too I we we got

1479
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:06,540
to go to Comic-Con we had a booth set up

1480
00:55:09,170 --> 00:55:07,920
and everything

1481
00:55:10,609 --> 00:55:09,180
um which was interesting too because we

1482
00:55:12,290 --> 00:55:10,619
got to see like like you have people

1483
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:12,300
walk by and they're like oh well what is

1484
00:55:16,069 --> 00:55:14,400
this and we gave him like the pitch

1485
00:55:18,829 --> 00:55:16,079
basically you know it's it's based on

1486
00:55:20,569 --> 00:55:18,839
Declassified documents it's it's about

1487
00:55:22,130 --> 00:55:20,579
the you know government's first

1488
00:55:25,130 --> 00:55:22,140
investigation to you about phenomenon

1489
00:55:26,690 --> 00:55:25,140
and just like the reactions on some

1490
00:55:28,609 --> 00:55:26,700
people like you wouldn't expect they're

1491
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:28,619
like oh my God that's so cool you know

1492
00:55:32,930 --> 00:55:30,000
like like and they start talking to us

1493
00:55:34,430 --> 00:55:32,940
about like UFOs or there's one guy talk

1494
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:34,440
to us about Chemtrails for 20 minutes

1495
00:55:42,170 --> 00:55:38,480
you know like all different walks

1496
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:42,180
but we got to meet Hickman and um he was

1497
00:55:44,930 --> 00:55:43,380
doing a signing

1498
00:55:47,450 --> 00:55:44,940
so I went to go get something signed

1499
00:55:50,089 --> 00:55:47,460
from I brought him a copy and I was like

1500
00:55:53,809 --> 00:55:50,099
I don't get Star Struck but I I was just

1501
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:53,819
like oh hey uh this is for you dude he

1502
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:55,800
just took one look at it he's like oh my

1503
00:55:59,690 --> 00:55:57,960
God I love this [\h__\h] this is for me and

1504
00:56:00,430 --> 00:55:59,700
just took it and I was like that's

1505
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,440
awesome

1506
00:56:08,750 --> 00:56:03,359
you know that's a nerd in me is like

1507
00:56:12,349 --> 00:56:10,670
that's amazing

1508
00:56:15,290 --> 00:56:12,359
um are you reading any series now like

1509
00:56:16,130 --> 00:56:15,300
any you talked about Spider-Man and some

1510
00:56:19,130 --> 00:56:16,140
of that

1511
00:56:23,809 --> 00:56:21,530
are you reading anything I was gonna say

1512
00:56:25,849 --> 00:56:23,819
I'm like low-key obsessed with Saga but

1513
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,859
that one on Hiatus for a couple of years

1514
00:56:30,049 --> 00:56:27,359
and I haven't caught back up with it

1515
00:56:33,410 --> 00:56:30,059
this is Brian K Vaughn um I love Grant

1516
00:56:35,690 --> 00:56:33,420
Morrison dude Saga rules saga's the kind

1517
00:56:37,370 --> 00:56:35,700
of comic it'll be yeah dude I was gonna

1518
00:56:39,349 --> 00:56:37,380
say it's gonna be taught in like college

1519
00:56:41,630 --> 00:56:39,359
literature classes it should be taught

1520
00:56:43,549 --> 00:56:41,640
in board literature classes

1521
00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:43,559
um in college it's such a great series

1522
00:56:48,829 --> 00:56:46,680
it's so good um I haven't caught up with

1523
00:56:51,470 --> 00:56:48,839
it after the Hiatus but I think it is

1524
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:51,480
just really superb yeah I remember

1525
00:56:56,569 --> 00:56:54,000
seeing it like on you know in comic book

1526
00:56:57,890 --> 00:56:56,579
shops and like uh Barnes Noble and stuff

1527
00:56:59,150 --> 00:56:57,900
like that and I always like passed by it

1528
00:57:00,890 --> 00:56:59,160
and then a friend of mine actually gave

1529
00:57:03,770 --> 00:57:00,900
me a like a physical copy and I was

1530
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:03,780
blown away and I said like what when

1531
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,400
you're blown away like that by like like

1532
00:57:09,470 --> 00:57:07,680
that's so inspiring it makes you think

1533
00:57:11,329 --> 00:57:09,480
like oh man I want to do something just

1534
00:57:12,410 --> 00:57:11,339
like this you know it gives you like a

1535
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:12,420
standard

1536
00:57:17,210 --> 00:57:15,359
um he's great uh Invincible is great

1537
00:57:19,790 --> 00:57:17,220
which got an animated series

1538
00:57:22,490 --> 00:57:19,800
um a great animated series but the the

1539
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:22,500
graphic novel is like I feel like so

1540
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:23,760
good

1541
00:57:29,390 --> 00:57:26,640
um I also I read a lot of manga you know

1542
00:57:30,049 --> 00:57:29,400
and I watch a lot of anime which I think

1543
00:57:32,569 --> 00:57:30,059
um

1544
00:57:34,849 --> 00:57:32,579
I I mean

1545
00:57:37,309 --> 00:57:34,859
people will argue about it but I think

1546
00:57:40,430 --> 00:57:37,319
Japanese animation anime in general is

1547
00:57:44,089 --> 00:57:40,440
Light Years light years ahead of Western

1548
00:57:45,890 --> 00:57:44,099
animation in terms of not just how it

1549
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:45,900
looks because I know like a lot of

1550
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:47,280
Western production companies try to

1551
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:49,440
emulate that style you know like the the

1552
00:57:53,390 --> 00:57:51,599
cool angles and stuff like that but what

1553
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:53,400
they're not getting is that like the

1554
00:57:57,530 --> 00:57:56,099
storytelling is so good the and like

1555
00:58:00,109 --> 00:57:57,540
really good enemy is really good at

1556
00:58:02,450 --> 00:58:00,119
taking a moment and stretching the

1557
00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:02,460
emotional meaning of that moment so it's

1558
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:05,160
absolute like maximum before it gets too

1559
00:58:09,410 --> 00:58:07,200
cheesy and just like letting it go like

1560
00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:09,420
a rubber band you know and it'll

1561
00:58:13,730 --> 00:58:11,760
generally bring you down somehow

1562
00:58:16,329 --> 00:58:13,740
um and I find we don't do that a lot in

1563
00:58:18,890 --> 00:58:16,339
Western animation which is kind of it's

1564
00:58:21,230 --> 00:58:18,900
It's not that we're not capable I just I

1565
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:21,240
just don't think the you know producers

1566
00:58:26,510 --> 00:58:24,000
want to spend the time doing it

1567
00:58:29,150 --> 00:58:26,520
yeah I mean animation in Western culture

1568
00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:29,160
is largely relegated to Children's media

1569
00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:31,980
you know I mean I think of Akira and

1570
00:58:35,809 --> 00:58:34,079
like I've seen a cure probably like 10

1571
00:58:37,789 --> 00:58:35,819
times and I still think it's one of the

1572
00:58:39,890 --> 00:58:37,799
greatest works in cinema period in the

1573
00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:39,900
last probably 40 years

1574
00:58:45,410 --> 00:58:42,420
um and the fact that it's animated

1575
00:58:47,809 --> 00:58:45,420
um does not detract from its substance

1576
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:47,819
or its power

1577
00:58:50,750 --> 00:58:48,960
um

1578
00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:50,760
yeah I mean I think I think Japan has

1579
00:58:54,289 --> 00:58:52,380
released at the standard for

1580
00:58:56,809 --> 00:58:54,299
sophisticated and Rich storytelling

1581
00:58:57,609 --> 00:58:56,819
stuff that's much more

1582
00:58:59,690 --> 00:58:57,619
um

1583
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,700
substantive particularly for adult

1584
00:59:04,370 --> 00:59:01,680
audiences for people that are looking

1585
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:04,380
for more complex stories

1586
00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:07,440
um I mean even stuff even works like

1587
00:59:11,930 --> 00:59:09,839
Princess Mononoke like I think these are

1588
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,940
really substantial and important films

1589
00:59:16,430 --> 00:59:13,920
that frequently and unfortunately kind

1590
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:16,440
of fly under the radar because uh like

1591
00:59:22,190 --> 00:59:20,160
you said and you know animation

1592
00:59:23,870 --> 00:59:22,200
um well the guy said animation in the

1593
00:59:25,490 --> 00:59:23,880
west tends to be for children and I

1594
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:25,500
think as a result tends to also be kind

1595
00:59:29,210 --> 00:59:27,000
of summarily dismissed by adult

1596
00:59:31,370 --> 00:59:29,220
audiences

1597
00:59:33,049 --> 00:59:31,380
yeah yeah and it's like it's it's sad

1598
00:59:35,630 --> 00:59:33,059
because a lot of people the same people

1599
00:59:37,609 --> 00:59:35,640
dismiss uh certain animes like from

1600
00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:37,619
Japan it's like you're missing out on a

1601
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,420
great story you're missing out on a

1602
00:59:44,329 --> 00:59:41,040
great director

1603
00:59:46,430 --> 00:59:44,339
um great Direction so I mean

1604
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:46,440
it's everyone's got their own taste what

1605
00:59:50,329 --> 00:59:48,480
I really would love to see is uh and

1606
00:59:52,910 --> 00:59:50,339
I've actually looked for this uh like an

1607
00:59:54,770 --> 00:59:52,920
anime about UFOs that takes the subject

1608
00:59:56,750 --> 00:59:54,780
matter a little seriously

1609
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:56,760
um there was one but it's like so old

1610
01:00:01,370 --> 00:59:59,040
that like it kind of didn't you know

1611
01:00:04,670 --> 01:00:01,380
didn't stand up very well now

1612
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:04,680
um yeah but it's again media in can you

1613
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:07,319
talk about Japanese UFO media yeah so

1614
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:09,359
there's this one show

1615
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:12,000
it's I I think they actually did the

1616
01:00:14,750 --> 01:00:13,920
Kenneth Arnold scene

1617
01:00:16,490 --> 01:00:14,760
um

1618
01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:16,500
I've got to look it up but it's like

1619
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:19,380
it's really old it looks like uh like it

1620
01:00:22,730 --> 01:00:21,359
was made in like 1960 something but

1621
01:00:25,130 --> 01:00:22,740
other than that I don't know too much

1622
01:00:26,930 --> 01:00:25,140
about how they respond to the phenomenon

1623
01:00:28,490 --> 01:00:26,940
right and I think again this is where

1624
01:00:32,329 --> 01:00:28,500
media can be so powerful because like

1625
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:32,339
you know with how we do it right um

1626
01:00:35,930 --> 01:00:34,020
the fact that like we're always doing an

1627
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:35,940
alien invasion movie and we gotta defend

1628
01:00:40,609 --> 01:00:38,700
ourselves from this unknown enemy most

1629
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:40,619
of the time that's what it is

1630
01:00:43,490 --> 01:00:41,940
um and it's kind of in line with what

1631
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:43,500
these people thought you know at the

1632
01:00:50,030 --> 01:00:46,859
Pentagon uh

1633
01:00:52,370 --> 01:00:50,040
but it's so culturally us whereas I

1634
01:00:54,890 --> 01:00:52,380
don't know what the UFO phenomenon means

1635
01:00:58,430 --> 01:00:54,900
to the average Japanese person right in

1636
01:01:00,410 --> 01:00:58,440
Tokyo or somewhere uh because I I just

1637
01:01:02,329 --> 01:01:00,420
don't have the a reference point and

1638
01:01:04,910 --> 01:01:02,339
same thing like all across the you know

1639
01:01:07,309 --> 01:01:04,920
across the globe like if this subject

1640
01:01:09,650 --> 01:01:07,319
matter can be portrayed in it doesn't

1641
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:09,660
always have to be serious but can it can

1642
01:01:14,589 --> 01:01:12,240
it be portrayed in a way where it's

1643
01:01:18,589 --> 01:01:14,599
it's doing it justice one way or another

1644
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,599
it gives us a lens to the human uh

1645
01:01:22,910 --> 01:01:19,920
element of

1646
01:01:25,370 --> 01:01:22,920
this entire thing which is I I can't I I

1647
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:25,380
always believe that this this topic and

1648
01:01:29,150 --> 01:01:27,599
this phenomenon is the one one of the

1649
01:01:31,069 --> 01:01:29,160
few things that can bring this together

1650
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:31,079
as people no matter where you came from

1651
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:34,079
who you are uh you know what you might

1652
01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:37,260
have done before what you whatever

1653
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:39,960
um this gives you at least an a base

1654
01:01:44,450 --> 01:01:42,720
understanding with another human being

1655
01:01:46,490 --> 01:01:44,460
um and again a very base level because

1656
01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:46,500
nobody knows what's going on no one

1657
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:48,540
really knows what's going out there

1658
01:01:51,289 --> 01:01:49,440
um unless you want to listen to someone

1659
01:01:52,130 --> 01:01:51,299
like Dodie or whatever

1660
01:01:55,309 --> 01:01:52,140
um right

1661
01:01:56,809 --> 01:01:55,319
sorry no you're you're you're totally

1662
01:01:59,150 --> 01:01:56,819
fine you can rip on him here you're

1663
01:02:00,650 --> 01:01:59,160
you're in good company I don't wanna I

1664
01:02:02,030 --> 01:02:00,660
don't want to rip on him uh just a

1665
01:02:05,030 --> 01:02:02,040
skinny Bob thing really kind of ticked

1666
01:02:06,170 --> 01:02:05,040
me off I I when he said that that video

1667
01:02:08,030 --> 01:02:06,180
was real

1668
01:02:09,289 --> 01:02:08,040
um I just it makes you wonder like why

1669
01:02:11,930 --> 01:02:09,299
why would you say something like that

1670
01:02:13,849 --> 01:02:11,940
where you what angle are you coming from

1671
01:02:16,010 --> 01:02:13,859
um but again we don't know really how

1672
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,020
other people respond to this and you

1673
01:02:20,690 --> 01:02:18,240
know maybe us viewing this as this

1674
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:20,700
existential threat is unique to American

1675
01:02:25,370 --> 01:02:22,799
culture maybe other cultures don't view

1676
01:02:26,930 --> 01:02:25,380
it this way right and now like it'd be

1677
01:02:30,650 --> 01:02:26,940
nice to have some perspective and some

1678
01:02:32,450 --> 01:02:30,660
lens or lens to look through uh and see

1679
01:02:35,150 --> 01:02:32,460
it from their point of view

1680
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:35,160
yeah I am one of the things we talk

1681
01:02:39,410 --> 01:02:37,200
about frequently on this show or I I

1682
01:02:42,650 --> 01:02:39,420
harp on pretty frequently is the Western

1683
01:02:45,289 --> 01:02:42,660
view of reality is so strictly material

1684
01:02:47,870 --> 01:02:45,299
that we have very poor and very few

1685
01:02:50,089 --> 01:02:47,880
cultural and social narratives to talk

1686
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,099
about the metaphysical or the immaterial

1687
01:02:56,089 --> 01:02:52,799
experience that humans have

1688
01:02:58,430 --> 01:02:56,099
um and I think what may lend itself to a

1689
01:03:02,089 --> 01:02:58,440
very interesting exploration through

1690
01:03:04,670 --> 01:03:02,099
Japanese culture is um Shinto like the

1691
01:03:08,569 --> 01:03:04,680
Shinto tradition and animism and the

1692
01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:08,579
sort of insolvent or kind of

1693
01:03:16,670 --> 01:03:13,500
metaphysical views and beliefs that

1694
01:03:19,250 --> 01:03:16,680
inhabit the natural world and sort of

1695
01:03:21,650 --> 01:03:19,260
the material world around you and to me

1696
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:21,660
that feels like it creates something of

1697
01:03:29,329 --> 01:03:25,920
a cultural and spiritual and social

1698
01:03:31,789 --> 01:03:29,339
bridge that you can use to explore some

1699
01:03:34,250 --> 01:03:31,799
of these experiences in a way that like

1700
01:03:36,770 --> 01:03:34,260
Western culture and experience just

1701
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:36,780
doesn't really allow

1702
01:03:41,210 --> 01:03:39,599
um yeah well I mean yeah again it's

1703
01:03:42,770 --> 01:03:41,220
another lens that like they're looking

1704
01:03:44,210 --> 01:03:42,780
they're looking at their world through a

1705
01:03:45,289 --> 01:03:44,220
different lens versus how cultured we

1706
01:03:47,030 --> 01:03:45,299
look at something through very different

1707
01:03:49,309 --> 01:03:47,040
and that's kind of the power of

1708
01:03:50,809 --> 01:03:49,319
Storytelling and even even like like

1709
01:03:54,589 --> 01:03:50,819
religion

1710
01:03:58,789 --> 01:03:54,599
um it can really unify our differences

1711
01:04:02,089 --> 01:03:58,799
can really uh unify I think the masses

1712
01:04:04,370 --> 01:04:02,099
I'm a big believer in that where uh the

1713
01:04:06,650 --> 01:04:04,380
more perspectives the better

1714
01:04:08,089 --> 01:04:06,660
um ultimately I I don't think there

1715
01:04:09,650 --> 01:04:08,099
there is a right perspective on this

1716
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:09,660
like even this phenomenon for instance

1717
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:11,099
like you have nuts and bolts crew and

1718
01:04:13,970 --> 01:04:12,960
you have like they experience your crew

1719
01:04:15,650 --> 01:04:13,980
right

1720
01:04:17,690 --> 01:04:15,660
um so nuts and bolts people want

1721
01:04:19,130 --> 01:04:17,700
documents and that's how I started out I

1722
01:04:21,829 --> 01:04:19,140
just want documents I don't want to hear

1723
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:21,839
about anyone uh being abducted anywhere

1724
01:04:25,370 --> 01:04:23,520
or anything like that

1725
01:04:26,990 --> 01:04:25,380
um and then you know I got introducing

1726
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:27,000
UFO to Twitter and started like

1727
01:04:30,289 --> 01:04:28,559
listening on these spaces and hearing

1728
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:30,299
people talk about their experiences with

1729
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:31,200
just

1730
01:04:34,910 --> 01:04:33,119
dude a lot of them were even trying to

1731
01:04:36,589 --> 01:04:34,920
you know ham it up they weren't trying

1732
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:36,599
to really tell this extravagant story

1733
01:04:39,410 --> 01:04:37,920
it's just like yeah I don't know what it

1734
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:39,420
was and some of them some of these

1735
01:04:46,250 --> 01:04:42,960
experiences are so uh so out of the

1736
01:04:48,890 --> 01:04:46,260
realm of ordinary you know and

1737
01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:48,900
it it made it made me believe that okay

1738
01:04:52,430 --> 01:04:50,760
there there might be two different

1739
01:04:54,829 --> 01:04:52,440
things going on maybe they're correlated

1740
01:04:57,829 --> 01:04:54,839
maybe they're not but there is something

1741
01:05:00,890 --> 01:04:57,839
happening on on a level of I don't know

1742
01:05:02,809 --> 01:05:00,900
if it's I again I I don't know what's a

1743
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:02,819
classify it as but there is a very

1744
01:05:06,829 --> 01:05:04,559
unique phenomenon happening amongst

1745
01:05:08,750 --> 01:05:06,839
people who uh are not just seeing things

1746
01:05:11,329 --> 01:05:08,760
but they're also experiencing like these

1747
01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:11,339
full uh full-bodied experiences that

1748
01:05:17,150 --> 01:05:14,940
that really um it's it's crazy anything

1749
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:17,160
I can think of you know and when you

1750
01:05:20,210 --> 01:05:18,480
hear them talk about it too when you

1751
01:05:21,650 --> 01:05:20,220
when you unders like you understand who

1752
01:05:23,329 --> 01:05:21,660
some of these people are they're

1753
01:05:24,770 --> 01:05:23,339
listening to them for a while you're

1754
01:05:25,970 --> 01:05:24,780
like this is just a normal person who

1755
01:05:29,690 --> 01:05:25,980
can't figure out what the hell happened

1756
01:05:32,750 --> 01:05:29,700
to them you know and that to me is yeah

1757
01:05:35,089 --> 01:05:32,760
it was it was very apparent to me nearly

1758
01:05:37,309 --> 01:05:35,099
immediately in conversation with people

1759
01:05:39,370 --> 01:05:37,319
in this community and experiencers is

1760
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:39,380
that there's substantial overlap between

1761
01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:42,480
experiencers and what's typeified as

1762
01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:44,640
spiritual emergence either deliberately

1763
01:05:48,829 --> 01:05:46,799
induced or spontaneous kind of mystical

1764
01:05:50,270 --> 01:05:48,839
experiences or Awakenings which have

1765
01:05:53,569 --> 01:05:50,280
been

1766
01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:53,579
um discussed and historicized basically

1767
01:05:58,730 --> 01:05:57,180
every place through all of human history

1768
01:06:01,010 --> 01:05:58,740
um and you know I think Twitter and

1769
01:06:03,410 --> 01:06:01,020
Twitter spaces and

1770
01:06:05,690 --> 01:06:03,420
um organizations like the experiencers

1771
01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:05,700
groups that uh J Christopher King runs

1772
01:06:10,609 --> 01:06:08,460
like these are basically public or

1773
01:06:12,589 --> 01:06:10,619
semi-public aggress where people are

1774
01:06:15,010 --> 01:06:12,599
finally able to connect with other

1775
01:06:18,589 --> 01:06:15,020
people that have had similar either

1776
01:06:21,650 --> 01:06:18,599
experiences or um

1777
01:06:23,329 --> 01:06:21,660
I don't want to say encounters exactly

1778
01:06:25,250 --> 01:06:23,339
um but yeah and one of the other things

1779
01:06:27,049 --> 01:06:25,260
Nick who's not here this evening but one

1780
01:06:30,529 --> 01:06:27,059
of the things he frequently says is that

1781
01:06:32,990 --> 01:06:30,539
ufology is not just one thing

1782
01:06:34,490 --> 01:06:33,000
um and you brought that up and I think

1783
01:06:36,109 --> 01:06:34,500
that that's always worth mentioning too

1784
01:06:38,029 --> 01:06:36,119
that you can have

1785
01:06:41,210 --> 01:06:38,039
nuts and bolts you can have the

1786
01:06:43,789 --> 01:06:41,220
Consciousness perspective you can have

1787
01:06:45,770 --> 01:06:43,799
um the kind of religious and folklore

1788
01:06:48,890 --> 01:06:45,780
and mythological Framing and the

1789
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:48,900
psychological and socio-cultural framing

1790
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:51,420
etc etc etc and it can be all of these

1791
01:06:54,349 --> 01:06:52,799
things and none of these things and

1792
01:06:56,210 --> 01:06:54,359
nothing is mutually exclusive really

1793
01:06:57,770 --> 01:06:56,220
like all of these things can exist in

1794
01:06:59,329 --> 01:06:57,780
relationship and intention with one

1795
01:07:00,770 --> 01:06:59,339
another they're all just different

1796
01:07:03,410 --> 01:07:00,780
Frameworks

1797
01:07:05,809 --> 01:07:03,420
um to kind of approach this huge

1798
01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:05,819
numinous looming subject

1799
01:07:10,670 --> 01:07:08,400
um Jeff [\h__\h] I mean [\h__\h] you were

1800
01:07:11,990 --> 01:07:10,680
there in December like Jeff [\h__\h] said

1801
01:07:13,849 --> 01:07:12,000
something about how like to study the

1802
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,859
UFO is to study everything and I think

1803
01:07:17,870 --> 01:07:15,599
of that all the time because it's such a

1804
01:07:20,329 --> 01:07:17,880
fundamentally interdisciplinary and

1805
01:07:22,849 --> 01:07:20,339
cross-disciplinary subject

1806
01:07:24,529 --> 01:07:22,859
yeah I always uh I like to think of that

1807
01:07:26,690 --> 01:07:24,539
line from The Matrix you know there is

1808
01:07:28,130 --> 01:07:26,700
no spoon while you're staring at a spoon

1809
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:28,140
right

1810
01:07:32,329 --> 01:07:30,720
um it's one of those things where

1811
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:32,339
I I don't like I said I don't think

1812
01:07:36,109 --> 01:07:34,559
anybody has a real answer unless they're

1813
01:07:37,130 --> 01:07:36,119
they're read in somehow

1814
01:07:40,130 --> 01:07:37,140
um

1815
01:07:41,329 --> 01:07:40,140
however that that works but

1816
01:07:44,029 --> 01:07:41,339
when you cut when you start talking

1817
01:07:46,910 --> 01:07:44,039
about people's experiences

1818
01:07:48,890 --> 01:07:46,920
you know it's I like I had a real hard

1819
01:07:50,450 --> 01:07:48,900
time connecting it to you like I I still

1820
01:07:53,049 --> 01:07:50,460
think it's two separate things going at

1821
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:53,059
the same time but that that is a a

1822
01:07:58,730 --> 01:07:56,160
widely reported phenomenon uh I'm sorry

1823
01:08:00,529 --> 01:07:58,740
to understand uh that nobody really can

1824
01:08:02,450 --> 01:08:00,539
understand what's going on there and

1825
01:08:04,430 --> 01:08:02,460
heinek even I think he's quoted as

1826
01:08:05,870 --> 01:08:04,440
saying and this is a guy who was like

1827
01:08:08,270 --> 01:08:05,880
you know basically paid by the

1828
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:08,280
government to debunk all this stuff

1829
01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:10,920
earlier but uh he was quoted as saying

1830
01:08:13,849 --> 01:08:12,480
he's like I'm a little disappointed that

1831
01:08:17,689 --> 01:08:13,859
like

1832
01:08:19,309 --> 01:08:17,699
people don't take the more oh man I I

1833
01:08:22,010 --> 01:08:19,319
don't want to butcher his quote but the

1834
01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:22,020
more uh wild stuff

1835
01:08:26,209 --> 01:08:24,000
right they don't look into it as much

1836
01:08:27,709 --> 01:08:26,219
they stop at the nuts and bolts and once

1837
01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:27,719
it gets a little out of the realm of the

1838
01:08:33,169 --> 01:08:30,420
ordinary that nobody pursues that

1839
01:08:34,849 --> 01:08:33,179
anymore and his experience

1840
01:08:36,829 --> 01:08:34,859
you know that that that's that's an

1841
01:08:38,269 --> 01:08:36,839
Avenue we should be taking we should be

1842
01:08:39,050 --> 01:08:38,279
questioning

1843
01:08:42,829 --> 01:08:39,060
um

1844
01:08:45,169 --> 01:08:42,839
yeah it's it's it's it's wild and we

1845
01:08:47,329 --> 01:08:45,179
have these uh original researchers like

1846
01:08:49,249 --> 01:08:47,339
uh Dr jail and heineck who was you know

1847
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:49,259
astrophysicist chair of Northwestern

1848
01:08:52,849 --> 01:08:51,359
University's astrophysics Department was

1849
01:08:55,729 --> 01:08:52,859
working for Project Blue Book for the

1850
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:55,739
U.S Air Force for years in his book he

1851
01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:58,080
uh uses the word craft uh multiple times

1852
01:09:03,709 --> 01:09:01,319
while describing the objects and we know

1853
01:09:06,169 --> 01:09:03,719
that late in life he ended up saying

1854
01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:06,179
that he thought that the specific

1855
01:09:09,410 --> 01:09:07,500
category of object that people are

1856
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:09,420
describing as UFOs with the similar

1857
01:09:13,550 --> 01:09:10,920
characteristics that he was describing

1858
01:09:17,329 --> 01:09:13,560
in his book uh maybe Elementals or

1859
01:09:20,450 --> 01:09:17,339
nature spirits and we have uh views like

1860
01:09:23,030 --> 01:09:20,460
from Dr Jacques valet uh saying that he

1861
01:09:28,010 --> 01:09:23,040
believes that it is some kind of um

1862
01:09:29,630 --> 01:09:28,020
presence that is uh felt by human uh

1863
01:09:31,189 --> 01:09:29,640
development through history it's

1864
01:09:34,010 --> 01:09:31,199
influencing the course of human history

1865
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:34,020
through sort of these interactions these

1866
01:09:39,050 --> 01:09:36,239
uh bursts of creativity and things like

1867
01:09:40,910 --> 01:09:39,060
that now as somebody who's so creative

1868
01:09:43,010 --> 01:09:40,920
um there's this common experience that

1869
01:09:45,229 --> 01:09:43,020
uh some experiences describe of like

1870
01:09:47,570 --> 01:09:45,239
information download type things and I

1871
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:47,580
can't help but notice the similarity to

1872
01:09:52,610 --> 01:09:49,920
Historic uh descriptions of things like

1873
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:52,620
getting uh divine inspiration you know

1874
01:09:57,950 --> 01:09:54,960
and the association to creativity and

1875
01:10:00,410 --> 01:09:57,960
sort of destructive or chaotic forces

1876
01:10:01,970 --> 01:10:00,420
um and so for you have you ever had an

1877
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:01,980
experience like that like a something

1878
01:10:05,570 --> 01:10:03,120
that you would

1879
01:10:07,070 --> 01:10:05,580
categorizes like descriptively like an

1880
01:10:08,930 --> 01:10:07,080
information download a sudden burst of

1881
01:10:11,870 --> 01:10:08,940
creativity and if you did have that like

1882
01:10:14,030 --> 01:10:11,880
how would you describe that experience

1883
01:10:17,229 --> 01:10:14,040
usually a lot of weed and Red Bull and

1884
01:10:20,149 --> 01:10:17,239
I'll get a download somehow um

1885
01:10:23,570 --> 01:10:20,159
you're in good company uh yeah yeah

1886
01:10:26,030 --> 01:10:23,580
sounds good let's do it no I I I I I I

1887
01:10:28,310 --> 01:10:26,040
am familiar with with that kind of

1888
01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:28,320
experience um I personally have it like

1889
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:29,760
I don't know creativity is a different

1890
01:10:32,810 --> 01:10:31,199
thing I always like to think you have an

1891
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:32,820
antenna and you just have to position

1892
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:35,280
your antenna and and like like you'll

1893
01:10:39,950 --> 01:10:37,199
get funneled something somehow you know

1894
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:39,960
just you have to have a mindful effort

1895
01:10:44,510 --> 01:10:42,960
to it and I think Tesla uh Tesla was

1896
01:10:46,910 --> 01:10:44,520
like like said the same thing he's like

1897
01:10:48,890 --> 01:10:46,920
dude like I just I got this I it's not

1898
01:10:51,050 --> 01:10:48,900
something that like like I intricately

1899
01:10:51,649 --> 01:10:51,060
know even though he's a genius

1900
01:10:54,530 --> 01:10:51,659
um

1901
01:10:57,649 --> 01:10:54,540
but no I I haven't I think burst of

1902
01:11:00,290 --> 01:10:57,659
creativity come when you're just

1903
01:11:02,330 --> 01:11:00,300
either frustrated or or you the ball

1904
01:11:04,010 --> 01:11:02,340
gets rolling or you have people to kind

1905
01:11:07,310 --> 01:11:04,020
of like you know

1906
01:11:10,250 --> 01:11:07,320
um to to bounce off of I I don't think

1907
01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:10,260
there's any real like method to it but I

1908
01:11:14,689 --> 01:11:11,880
am interested in some people like you

1909
01:11:16,430 --> 01:11:14,699
know like in like biblical stories and

1910
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,440
um people who say they've got like this

1911
01:11:21,050 --> 01:11:18,480
divine inspiration they heard a voice

1912
01:11:23,090 --> 01:11:21,060
say this or you know and and it led them

1913
01:11:24,470 --> 01:11:23,100
down to the path now whether that

1914
01:11:26,030 --> 01:11:24,480
actually happened or not that

1915
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:26,040
fundamentally changed that person's life

1916
01:11:30,890 --> 01:11:28,080
right and the trajectory that they were

1917
01:11:32,570 --> 01:11:30,900
on and and in turn that person is

1918
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:32,580
whatever he's doing now is changing

1919
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:34,560
other people's trajectories

1920
01:11:37,250 --> 01:11:35,520
um so I always find that very

1921
01:11:39,590 --> 01:11:37,260
fascinating very interesting and as far

1922
01:11:41,870 --> 01:11:39,600
as to where like uh something like

1923
01:11:43,970 --> 01:11:41,880
divinity comes into play when you're

1924
01:11:46,430 --> 01:11:43,980
talking about the phenomenon uh there's

1925
01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:46,440
so many Avenues can go down like Zaria

1926
01:11:50,570 --> 01:11:48,840
stitching um you know you have the whole

1927
01:11:52,610 --> 01:11:50,580
Ancient Aliens crowd which I'm not like

1928
01:11:54,530 --> 01:11:52,620
too big of a fan of but then you you

1929
01:11:56,450 --> 01:11:54,540
have some people that um

1930
01:11:57,770 --> 01:11:56,460
all right so really explore the idea

1931
01:11:59,209 --> 01:11:57,780
that this might be interdimensional

1932
01:12:01,910 --> 01:11:59,219
somehow that this might be a

1933
01:12:04,130 --> 01:12:01,920
representation of of how we're viewing

1934
01:12:06,169 --> 01:12:04,140
this thing or it's a representation of

1935
01:12:07,790 --> 01:12:06,179
how we view it uh and you get into all

1936
01:12:09,770 --> 01:12:07,800
sorts of metaphysical Realms where there

1937
01:12:11,390 --> 01:12:09,780
really is no right answer you have a lot

1938
01:12:13,010 --> 01:12:11,400
of questions but

1939
01:12:15,169 --> 01:12:13,020
some of the some of those questions are

1940
01:12:18,169 --> 01:12:15,179
fundamental to to you as a human being

1941
01:12:19,490 --> 01:12:18,179
you know and uh I I find that part of

1942
01:12:20,450 --> 01:12:19,500
the phenomenon very very interesting

1943
01:12:21,649 --> 01:12:20,460
even though we don't really approach

1944
01:12:24,110 --> 01:12:21,659
that too much

1945
01:12:26,330 --> 01:12:24,120
um there's we do have a character uh I

1946
01:12:28,850 --> 01:12:26,340
mentioned earlier Albert Diamond who um

1947
01:12:30,770 --> 01:12:28,860
who's an intelligence officer uh I

1948
01:12:32,330 --> 01:12:30,780
believe is involved in paperclip as well

1949
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:32,340
and he took a very nuts impulse approach

1950
01:12:36,169 --> 01:12:34,260
to this at first and

1951
01:12:38,390 --> 01:12:36,179
um he's often at odds with our other

1952
01:12:39,950 --> 01:12:38,400
main character but he's also very deeply

1953
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:39,960
religious man and we found that out

1954
01:12:44,209 --> 01:12:41,760
through Wendy Connor's archive because

1955
01:12:46,010 --> 01:12:44,219
his son said that like he would go to

1956
01:12:47,149 --> 01:12:46,020
church he would never miss church you'd

1957
01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:47,159
have church meetings like literally

1958
01:12:52,010 --> 01:12:49,140
every Sunday at his house so now

1959
01:12:55,490 --> 01:12:52,020
somebody who's so deeply religious

1960
01:12:57,709 --> 01:12:55,500
um comes to this this uh

1961
01:13:00,110 --> 01:12:57,719
I was a conclusion because at least has

1962
01:13:02,810 --> 01:13:00,120
to face the idea that we're not alone

1963
01:13:04,310 --> 01:13:02,820
you know whatever it is

1964
01:13:08,570 --> 01:13:04,320
um that is

1965
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:08,580
such an interesting story to be told uh

1966
01:13:12,410 --> 01:13:10,260
and it's such an interesting experience

1967
01:13:14,110 --> 01:13:12,420
to have you know all of a sudden you're

1968
01:13:16,790 --> 01:13:14,120
confronted with something that directly

1969
01:13:18,530 --> 01:13:16,800
contradicts what you've been taught and

1970
01:13:20,270 --> 01:13:18,540
what you believed your entire life and

1971
01:13:21,530 --> 01:13:20,280
maybe doesn't even contradicted but it

1972
01:13:23,630 --> 01:13:21,540
definitely throws a wrench in everything

1973
01:13:26,450 --> 01:13:23,640
right and it forces you to sit down and

1974
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:26,460
be like well [\h__\h]

1975
01:13:29,810 --> 01:13:28,739
um so I I find that aspect really

1976
01:13:31,790 --> 01:13:29,820
interesting and again it's another

1977
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:31,800
example of how this phenomenon can

1978
01:13:36,410 --> 01:13:33,600
actually bridge the gap between people

1979
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:36,420
you know no matter what you believe

1980
01:13:39,290 --> 01:13:37,280
um

1981
01:13:40,189 --> 01:13:39,300
there's gonna be a question at the end

1982
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:40,199
today and I think fundamentally

1983
01:13:43,310 --> 01:13:41,760
fundamentally at the end of the day the

1984
01:13:45,649 --> 01:13:43,320
question is well what is this and what's

1985
01:13:46,970 --> 01:13:45,659
this mean about us you know in our place

1986
01:13:49,490 --> 01:13:46,980
here

1987
01:13:51,530 --> 01:13:49,500
um and I just find it so deeply profound

1988
01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:51,540
I really do and

1989
01:13:55,189 --> 01:13:52,199
um

1990
01:13:56,510 --> 01:13:55,199
you know we're in very tense times right

1991
01:13:58,910 --> 01:13:56,520
now and

1992
01:14:00,890 --> 01:13:58,920
I just imagine you know just imagine

1993
01:14:02,930 --> 01:14:00,900
like we all just like like something

1994
01:14:05,870 --> 01:14:02,940
happened that we couldn't ignore right

1995
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:05,880
like maybe an incursion on uh like in

1996
01:14:09,709 --> 01:14:07,980
someone's airspace or something or the

1997
01:14:12,350 --> 01:14:09,719
quote-unquote the UFOs of the White

1998
01:14:14,630 --> 01:14:12,360
House finally happened like how are we

1999
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:14,640
gonna react not just culturally like

2000
01:14:17,390 --> 01:14:16,800
like as Americans but just

2001
01:14:20,450 --> 01:14:17,400
um

2002
01:14:23,390 --> 01:14:20,460
you know uh like globally as as a people

2003
01:14:25,189 --> 01:14:23,400
like like are we gonna Branch together

2004
01:14:26,689 --> 01:14:25,199
are we gonna get even more paranoid or

2005
01:14:28,910 --> 01:14:26,699
are we gonna get more insular like you

2006
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:28,920
know I don't know but I do think that it

2007
01:14:33,229 --> 01:14:30,239
would provide the opportunity to at

2008
01:14:35,030 --> 01:14:33,239
least all of us ask the same question at

2009
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:35,040
the same time and that's a really good

2010
01:14:38,090 --> 01:14:36,480
starting point

2011
01:14:40,370 --> 01:14:38,100
um and I'm getting preachy I'm sorry I

2012
01:14:42,169 --> 01:14:40,380
just uh no no you're you're not at all

2013
01:14:44,030 --> 01:14:42,179
and this is I want to be very clear this

2014
01:14:45,830 --> 01:14:44,040
is first of all you're definitely among

2015
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:45,840
friends right we don't run an

2016
01:14:49,130 --> 01:14:47,760
adversarial show here at all like you

2017
01:14:50,689 --> 01:14:49,140
could come up here

2018
01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:50,699
we're not like as long as you're

2019
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:52,260
relatively polite you don't even have to

2020
01:14:56,030 --> 01:14:53,760
be that polite

2021
01:14:57,169 --> 01:14:56,040
um yeah like we'll keep you on the

2022
01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:57,179
stream

2023
01:15:05,149 --> 01:14:58,320
um

2024
01:15:06,649 --> 01:15:05,159
notion of creative inspiration or

2025
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:06,659
downloads again this is something that's

2026
01:15:10,010 --> 01:15:08,159
been with humans forever like the

2027
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:10,020
mathematician Romano John talks about

2028
01:15:14,510 --> 01:15:12,719
how Lakshmi was whispering uh

2029
01:15:15,470 --> 01:15:14,520
mathematics proofs and formulas in his

2030
01:15:17,510 --> 01:15:15,480
ear

2031
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:17,520
um you know like we you have these ideas

2032
01:15:22,010 --> 01:15:20,400
of the muses that um were effectively

2033
01:15:24,050 --> 01:15:22,020
channeled creativity

2034
01:15:25,970 --> 01:15:24,060
um we've always been in positions to

2035
01:15:29,450 --> 01:15:25,980
basically explore and deliberately

2036
01:15:32,030 --> 01:15:29,460
induce altered Consciousness in order to

2037
01:15:34,250 --> 01:15:32,040
um kind of open our minds up to be

2038
01:15:36,350 --> 01:15:34,260
creative or to solve problems

2039
01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:36,360
um and what I think is interesting is

2040
01:15:40,910 --> 01:15:38,400
how we've created nomenclature and

2041
01:15:43,370 --> 01:15:40,920
language around these experiences that

2042
01:15:45,649 --> 01:15:43,380
are very very much yoked and tied to the

2043
01:15:48,130 --> 01:15:45,659
moment in which they're created so you

2044
01:15:51,410 --> 01:15:48,140
know in 2023 we're talking about

2045
01:15:54,110 --> 01:15:51,420
downloads right but in the 16th century

2046
01:15:55,850 --> 01:15:54,120
we're talking about Muses

2047
01:15:58,130 --> 01:15:55,860
um you know in the early 20th century

2048
01:16:00,590 --> 01:15:58,140
we're talking about goddesses or divine

2049
01:16:02,090 --> 01:16:00,600
inspiration but I mean I think at the

2050
01:16:04,370 --> 01:16:02,100
heart of all this we're sort of talking

2051
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:04,380
and circling around the same phenomena

2052
01:16:08,390 --> 01:16:06,480
the same experience we're just kind of

2053
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:08,400
conferring different language on it

2054
01:16:13,130 --> 01:16:11,040
based on sort of the surrounding culture

2055
01:16:15,649 --> 01:16:13,140
and Frameworks that we have

2056
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:15,659
that's a really interesting point

2057
01:16:19,850 --> 01:16:18,000
um that's actually that that is really

2058
01:16:22,490 --> 01:16:19,860
cool to hear

2059
01:16:26,410 --> 01:16:22,500
I like you're right and also there's a

2060
01:16:30,410 --> 01:16:28,790
a lot of people say that that you know

2061
01:16:33,290 --> 01:16:30,420
the uh the sightings that people are

2062
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:33,300
experiencing uh that is also a

2063
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:35,280
representation of that idea that because

2064
01:16:39,890 --> 01:16:37,920
we are in the 21st century

2065
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:39,900
um and we we're around we're very

2066
01:16:44,990 --> 01:16:41,520
industrialized

2067
01:16:47,410 --> 01:16:45,000
um and somewhat civilized sometimes

2068
01:16:51,530 --> 01:16:49,850
yeah but like when when you know when we

2069
01:16:53,330 --> 01:16:51,540
see this we're looking at it from from

2070
01:16:55,850 --> 01:16:53,340
that particular lens where someone who

2071
01:16:58,490 --> 01:16:55,860
saw something you know in the 18th

2072
01:17:01,310 --> 01:16:58,500
century 15th century maybe like like it

2073
01:17:03,649 --> 01:17:01,320
ancient Egypt they see something else

2074
01:17:05,870 --> 01:17:03,659
right and that could very well be true

2075
01:17:08,090 --> 01:17:05,880
and like their interpretation of what's

2076
01:17:09,530 --> 01:17:08,100
going on so I always thought that was

2077
01:17:12,590 --> 01:17:09,540
like super interesting I have no answer

2078
01:17:15,350 --> 01:17:12,600
for that because you just you know it's

2079
01:17:16,850 --> 01:17:15,360
how do you answer that yeah like we've

2080
01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:16,860
we've talked on the show previously

2081
01:17:22,030 --> 01:17:19,860
about how what people see in the skies

2082
01:17:24,050 --> 01:17:22,040
or what they experience tends to be

2083
01:17:27,050 --> 01:17:24,060
outpacing the current status

2084
01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:27,060
technologically just by a little bit so

2085
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:29,400
at the end of the 19th century you're

2086
01:17:35,630 --> 01:17:32,880
having airships in the 40s and 50s

2087
01:17:38,510 --> 01:17:35,640
you're having literal flying saucers

2088
01:17:40,970 --> 01:17:38,520
um you're having orbs and Foo Fighters

2089
01:17:44,090 --> 01:17:40,980
and things like that and then as our

2090
01:17:46,070 --> 01:17:44,100
technology improves it's no longer that

2091
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:46,080
we're getting visitors from Venus and

2092
01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:48,239
Mars we're getting visitors from you

2093
01:17:53,930 --> 01:17:51,840
know Zeta reticuli or whatever and now I

2094
01:17:56,209 --> 01:17:53,940
feel like that Trend towards sort of the

2095
01:17:57,890 --> 01:17:56,219
Consciousness perspective reflects sort

2096
01:18:00,290 --> 01:17:57,900
of consciousnesses like this last

2097
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:00,300
mysterious Frontier as our sort of

2098
01:18:05,510 --> 01:18:03,120
knowledge and understanding of space in

2099
01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:05,520
the material Realms have

2100
01:18:09,410 --> 01:18:07,920
um no I I'm personally about to say

2101
01:18:11,630 --> 01:18:09,420
something I don't actually agree with

2102
01:18:13,610 --> 01:18:11,640
but as our understanding of space in the

2103
01:18:15,350 --> 01:18:13,620
material Realms has improved and

2104
01:18:18,050 --> 01:18:15,360
increased

2105
01:18:21,410 --> 01:18:18,060
um again we connect the phenomena

2106
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:21,420
whatever it may be to the areas that

2107
01:18:24,950 --> 01:18:23,760
remain sort of dark to us and as a

2108
01:18:25,729 --> 01:18:24,960
result

2109
01:18:28,610 --> 01:18:25,739
um

2110
01:18:31,729 --> 01:18:28,620
the phenomena or these experiences has

2111
01:18:33,950 --> 01:18:31,739
moved from being things you see in the

2112
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:33,960
sky to more I think metaphysical or

2113
01:18:38,090 --> 01:18:36,719
Consciousness based and I feel like

2114
01:18:40,189 --> 01:18:38,100
that's sort of where a lot of the

2115
01:18:41,390 --> 01:18:40,199
conversations seem to be moving now as

2116
01:18:44,689 --> 01:18:41,400
well

2117
01:18:46,729 --> 01:18:44,699
yeah no that's a good point uh so I I've

2118
01:18:48,290 --> 01:18:46,739
thought about that a bit and like

2119
01:18:49,850 --> 01:18:48,300
there's this one case I keep coming back

2120
01:18:51,050 --> 01:18:49,860
to um and I wish I had the notes in

2121
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:51,060
front of me because I always butcher it

2122
01:18:54,649 --> 01:18:53,280
uh you're good so I hope I hope people

2123
01:18:56,030 --> 01:18:54,659
don't kill me for it none of us will

2124
01:18:58,030 --> 01:18:56,040
know enough to call you out if you're

2125
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,040
full of [\h__\h] so you're good

2126
01:19:02,390 --> 01:19:00,480
it's good to know

2127
01:19:04,970 --> 01:19:02,400
um but there was uh so so like when

2128
01:19:08,030 --> 01:19:04,980
Kenneth Arnold saw had his sighting and

2129
01:19:10,490 --> 01:19:08,040
he reported and um uh the subsequent

2130
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:10,500
sightings after that you know uh people

2131
01:19:15,229 --> 01:19:13,440
were like oh no well he saw something

2132
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:15,239
um it got into papers and now everyone

2133
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:17,040
thinks they saw a saucer or everyone

2134
01:19:19,729 --> 01:19:18,239
thinks they're seeing the same thing

2135
01:19:20,630 --> 01:19:19,739
right

2136
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:20,640
um because now it's in the cultural

2137
01:19:26,390 --> 01:19:24,000
Zeitgeist it's it's there but the the

2138
01:19:29,630 --> 01:19:26,400
the the disc shape specifically there's

2139
01:19:32,750 --> 01:19:29,640
a case uh I believe it's in April it's

2140
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:32,760
uh it's a weather bureau station in

2141
01:19:37,970 --> 01:19:35,760
Virginia and this what's his name Walter

2142
01:19:39,350 --> 01:19:37,980
Manchester so he basically like he would

2143
01:19:40,490 --> 01:19:39,360
release pipel balloons and observe him

2144
01:19:43,130 --> 01:19:40,500
through a theater light with like two

2145
01:19:46,430 --> 01:19:43,140
other people so this is before flying

2146
01:19:48,590 --> 01:19:46,440
saucers ever entered the binocular he on

2147
01:19:50,750 --> 01:19:48,600
three separate occasions through the

2148
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:50,760
Autolite while releasing a pile of

2149
01:19:55,729 --> 01:19:53,760
balloons to observe it saw a silver disc

2150
01:19:57,229 --> 01:19:55,739
come in poke around and just kind of

2151
01:19:58,610 --> 01:19:57,239
like speed off and then through at the

2152
01:20:00,649 --> 01:19:58,620
auto light it's kind of like a telescope

2153
01:20:02,750 --> 01:20:00,659
almost like you get like a sharper image

2154
01:20:04,790 --> 01:20:02,760
and it's a little closer as far as I

2155
01:20:07,250 --> 01:20:04,800
understand it and he said he saw a

2156
01:20:10,430 --> 01:20:07,260
silver disc with a dome uh you know like

2157
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:10,440
a dome on top and they I think he had a

2158
01:20:13,610 --> 01:20:12,000
file out in Project Blue Book which he

2159
01:20:15,290 --> 01:20:13,620
actually never you know he was never

2160
01:20:16,970 --> 01:20:15,300
investigated about it

2161
01:20:18,830 --> 01:20:16,980
um he just meant it to a superior and

2162
01:20:21,050 --> 01:20:18,840
that was it so when they called them in

2163
01:20:23,330 --> 01:20:21,060
the 80s and I think this is I I found

2164
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:23,340
this uh I believe it's a Michael swords

2165
01:20:28,250 --> 01:20:25,679
or or someone else had a blog post about

2166
01:20:30,050 --> 01:20:28,260
this they they found him they called him

2167
01:20:31,850 --> 01:20:30,060
they asked him to recall that day and

2168
01:20:34,010 --> 01:20:31,860
with like a very visceral memory he was

2169
01:20:35,570 --> 01:20:34,020
just like listen this is what I saw but

2170
01:20:37,250 --> 01:20:35,580
what he was surprised was that there was

2171
01:20:39,229 --> 01:20:37,260
actually a file open in Blue Book

2172
01:20:41,330 --> 01:20:39,239
because no one ever came to him to talk

2173
01:20:43,310 --> 01:20:41,340
about it but I find that case so into

2174
01:20:44,810 --> 01:20:43,320
interesting because this is before it

2175
01:20:46,850 --> 01:20:44,820
entered anyone's Consciousness that

2176
01:20:48,229 --> 01:20:46,860
flying discs were a thing right so

2177
01:20:50,630 --> 01:20:48,239
anytime someone says it's a social

2178
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:50,640
contagion and the flying disc itself

2179
01:20:55,070 --> 01:20:53,040
like that's kind of people still see him

2180
01:20:56,930 --> 01:20:55,080
uh people still see him to this day I I

2181
01:20:58,250 --> 01:20:56,940
think that that there's something to

2182
01:20:59,689 --> 01:20:58,260
that shape there's something to that

2183
01:21:01,310 --> 01:20:59,699
Craft

2184
01:21:02,990 --> 01:21:01,320
um and the fact that this guy saw it

2185
01:21:05,090 --> 01:21:03,000
before it was on everybody's Minds

2186
01:21:08,330 --> 01:21:05,100
months before the wave months before the

2187
01:21:10,669 --> 01:21:08,340
flap uh leads me to believe that there's

2188
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:10,679
something there at least physical very

2189
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:12,239
tangible

2190
01:21:15,610 --> 01:21:13,199
um

2191
01:21:17,630 --> 01:21:15,620
yes we're you know

2192
01:21:21,229 --> 01:21:17,640
whereas Consciousness gets into it

2193
01:21:23,450 --> 01:21:21,239
that's just that gets so tricky it's

2194
01:21:25,970 --> 01:21:23,460
I I'd have to read a lot more books

2195
01:21:27,350 --> 01:21:25,980
before that yeah that once it gets into

2196
01:21:29,570 --> 01:21:27,360
Consciousness

2197
01:21:31,729 --> 01:21:29,580
um right then it becomes real squishy as

2198
01:21:34,010 --> 01:21:31,739
they say it becomes okay more difficult

2199
01:21:36,229 --> 01:21:34,020
not to unwind because we don't even have

2200
01:21:38,450 --> 01:21:36,239
a generally well

2201
01:21:40,910 --> 01:21:38,460
um defined consensus and what even

2202
01:21:41,630 --> 01:21:40,920
Consciousness is

2203
01:21:43,729 --> 01:21:41,640
um

2204
01:21:45,950 --> 01:21:43,739
yeah well now you have you know like I

2205
01:21:47,450 --> 01:21:45,960
think I I think the line is going to get

2206
01:21:49,370 --> 01:21:47,460
a little more clear now that we have

2207
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:49,380
like all these AI things coming out like

2208
01:21:53,810 --> 01:21:51,120
chat gpp and mid-journey where you're

2209
01:21:55,910 --> 01:21:53,820
starting to realize the algorithm

2210
01:21:57,950 --> 01:21:55,920
uh the algorithm that like probably we

2211
01:21:59,810 --> 01:21:57,960
all have somewhere mentally but like the

2212
01:22:02,030 --> 01:21:59,820
algorithm that's just the algorithm and

2213
01:22:04,669 --> 01:22:02,040
the algorithm with some sort of

2214
01:22:05,930 --> 01:22:04,679
awareness of of who they are and what

2215
01:22:07,970 --> 01:22:05,940
they are

2216
01:22:10,250 --> 01:22:07,980
um I I think it's a very interesting

2217
01:22:11,810 --> 01:22:10,260
topic moving forward and I mean I I

2218
01:22:14,390 --> 01:22:11,820
don't know how how adverse you guys are

2219
01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:14,400
in AI but like it's become a buzzword

2220
01:22:18,290 --> 01:22:16,560
lately but I've got to see it over the

2221
01:22:22,010 --> 01:22:18,300
last year or so like kind of takes shape

2222
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:22,020
and I'm blown away at how fast and how

2223
01:22:26,870 --> 01:22:23,520
good it's getting

2224
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:26,880
um and yeah it makes me ask well if

2225
01:22:32,570 --> 01:22:30,719
we're if we're seeing this now how you

2226
01:22:35,209 --> 01:22:32,580
know like what haven't we seen behind

2227
01:22:36,350 --> 01:22:35,219
the scenes right there's always at the

2228
01:22:37,970 --> 01:22:36,360
adage that like the government's always

2229
01:22:40,310 --> 01:22:37,980
like 50 years ahead of whatever current

2230
01:22:45,229 --> 01:22:40,320
Tech is like like drones now are in our

2231
01:22:46,490 --> 01:22:45,239
vocabulary right since 20 maybe 2010s I

2232
01:22:48,410 --> 01:22:46,500
believe like like drones starting to

2233
01:22:50,030 --> 01:22:48,420
become a thing we had drones in the 40s

2234
01:22:52,370 --> 01:22:50,040
like at least we were experimenting with

2235
01:22:54,290 --> 01:22:52,380
drones with radio signals and piloting

2236
01:22:55,850 --> 01:22:54,300
these things without an actual pilot it

2237
01:22:58,070 --> 01:22:55,860
which might have accounted for a lot of

2238
01:23:00,169 --> 01:22:58,080
these UFO sightings and I know

2239
01:23:04,550 --> 01:23:00,179
um gosh what's the name uh total Recon

2240
01:23:06,350 --> 01:23:04,560
or oh yeah Jeff strange Recon yeah so he

2241
01:23:08,390 --> 01:23:06,360
he's great because he he'll look at this

2242
01:23:10,370 --> 01:23:08,400
from a very like pragmatic point of view

2243
01:23:12,470 --> 01:23:10,380
and he he says this a lot and he's right

2244
01:23:14,149 --> 01:23:12,480
like how many of these sightings are

2245
01:23:17,930 --> 01:23:14,159
black projects that we don't know about

2246
01:23:20,390 --> 01:23:17,940
right how like the uh the SR-71 I'm sure

2247
01:23:22,430 --> 01:23:20,400
accounted for a lot of UFO sightings

2248
01:23:24,350 --> 01:23:22,440
um yes you know and so it whittles down

2249
01:23:26,990 --> 01:23:24,360
that number but I do think that once you

2250
01:23:28,370 --> 01:23:27,000
get rid of that the number still is very

2251
01:23:30,350 --> 01:23:28,380
significant

2252
01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:30,360
um as to the people who've seen

2253
01:23:34,669 --> 01:23:32,400
something that they can't explain uh and

2254
01:23:36,950 --> 01:23:34,679
interact with them in a very strange

2255
01:23:39,649 --> 01:23:36,960
manner like the the pilot from Tehran I

2256
01:23:41,570 --> 01:23:39,659
think in the 80s I believe it was 80s

2257
01:23:43,970 --> 01:23:41,580
um like things like that like like you

2258
01:23:45,709 --> 01:23:43,980
just you you cannot have an answer yeah

2259
01:23:47,930 --> 01:23:45,719
you can make West it as much as you want

2260
01:23:50,870 --> 01:23:47,940
you know and and people talk [\h__\h] about

2261
01:23:52,729 --> 01:23:50,880
Midwest and like look he's necessary for

2262
01:23:54,890 --> 01:23:52,739
the ecosystem whether he's doing in good

2263
01:23:57,830 --> 01:23:54,900
faith or not like personally I I've

2264
01:23:59,450 --> 01:23:57,840
talked to him in in a space and you know

2265
01:24:01,669 --> 01:23:59,460
like I

2266
01:24:03,350 --> 01:24:01,679
I I'm I'm on defense about him I think

2267
01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:03,360
he might be trying to establish a career

2268
01:24:08,450 --> 01:24:06,960
as the skeptic on Ancient Aliens it's in

2269
01:24:11,450 --> 01:24:08,460
subsequent shows but at the same time

2270
01:24:13,970 --> 01:24:11,460
you know he will challenge what people

2271
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:13,980
are saying what people are are doing and

2272
01:24:18,169 --> 01:24:16,080
like you do need that you do kind of

2273
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:18,179
need someone to challenge things because

2274
01:24:22,189 --> 01:24:20,400
it forces you to really look at it and

2275
01:24:24,050 --> 01:24:22,199
Define it for yourself why you believe

2276
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:24,060
it or why you believe this to be

2277
01:24:28,729 --> 01:24:26,400
whatever it is

2278
01:24:31,490 --> 01:24:28,739
um yeah so yeah

2279
01:24:35,570 --> 01:24:31,500
I mean I I was just gonna say too that

2280
01:24:38,510 --> 01:24:35,580
if if we treat this subject

2281
01:24:41,570 --> 01:24:38,520
um with a degree of importance and

2282
01:24:42,950 --> 01:24:41,580
seriousness that it requires because it

2283
01:24:45,290 --> 01:24:42,960
touches on one of the greatest and

2284
01:24:47,689 --> 01:24:45,300
largest questions in all of Humanity's

2285
01:24:50,630 --> 01:24:47,699
experience and history

2286
01:24:52,130 --> 01:24:50,640
um we also then have an intellectual

2287
01:24:59,169 --> 01:24:52,140
ethical

2288
01:25:02,750 --> 01:24:59,179
and moral responsibility to do diligence

2289
01:25:05,570 --> 01:25:02,760
in our exploration of the subject and

2290
01:25:07,610 --> 01:25:05,580
part of doing diligence means taking a

2291
01:25:09,530 --> 01:25:07,620
critical lens towards what we entertain

2292
01:25:10,550 --> 01:25:09,540
and what we don't

2293
01:25:12,890 --> 01:25:10,560
um

2294
01:25:14,570 --> 01:25:12,900
and and I say that because I think this

2295
01:25:16,430 --> 01:25:14,580
notion of skepticism can frequently

2296
01:25:18,490 --> 01:25:16,440
become maligned in this community but

2297
01:25:20,930 --> 01:25:18,500
the reality is that without some kind of

2298
01:25:23,330 --> 01:25:20,940
[\h__\h] filter you're going to spend

2299
01:25:25,790 --> 01:25:23,340
all your time looking at blurry iPhone

2300
01:25:28,490 --> 01:25:25,800
videos that some housewife in West

2301
01:25:30,770 --> 01:25:28,500
Virginia took out her kitchen window you

2302
01:25:33,470 --> 01:25:30,780
know when she's like three old-fashions

2303
01:25:35,930 --> 01:25:33,480
deep instead of having like some kind of

2304
01:25:37,850 --> 01:25:35,940
meaningful filter to say okay we have

2305
01:25:39,530 --> 01:25:37,860
these 500 cases but there's only like

2306
01:25:41,750 --> 01:25:39,540
three or four of them that are actually

2307
01:25:44,750 --> 01:25:41,760
particularly compelling and there's

2308
01:25:46,970 --> 01:25:44,760
nothing like you can dismiss 99 of them

2309
01:25:49,550 --> 01:25:46,980
and you should dismiss the ones that are

2310
01:25:52,850 --> 01:25:49,560
pretty egregious and bogus so that then

2311
01:25:54,410 --> 01:25:52,860
you can in turn uh direct appropriate

2312
01:25:56,090 --> 01:25:54,420
attention and resources and

2313
01:25:59,750 --> 01:25:56,100
consideration to the really compelling

2314
01:26:03,229 --> 01:25:59,760
stuff like having having a a filter like

2315
01:26:05,870 --> 01:26:03,239
being a filter rather than a sponge is a

2316
01:26:07,370 --> 01:26:05,880
reflection of healthy respect and

2317
01:26:09,470 --> 01:26:07,380
intellectual

2318
01:26:12,229 --> 01:26:09,480
um Integrity around the subject when

2319
01:26:14,629 --> 01:26:12,239
you're two when you're too proud uh it's

2320
01:26:17,390 --> 01:26:14,639
just to me it just speaks of like being

2321
01:26:21,050 --> 01:26:17,400
disingenuous and kind of a grifter

2322
01:26:23,149 --> 01:26:21,060
you know yeah no 100 and and I like for

2323
01:26:25,010 --> 01:26:23,159
me personally like I if I'm looking at

2324
01:26:27,890 --> 01:26:25,020
something and it's proven that okay it's

2325
01:26:30,229 --> 01:26:27,900
not what I think it is okay great move

2326
01:26:32,209 --> 01:26:30,239
on I want to move on let's go to the

2327
01:26:33,890 --> 01:26:32,219
next day yeah because like there's a

2328
01:26:35,870 --> 01:26:33,900
there's a plethora of stuff to look at

2329
01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:35,880
there's like there's so many cases you

2330
01:26:40,729 --> 01:26:37,800
can look at and analyze if you find out

2331
01:26:43,070 --> 01:26:40,739
one isn't what you think it is and you

2332
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:43,080
know it you got to that conclusion

2333
01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:44,400
because someone challenged that point of

2334
01:26:48,890 --> 01:26:46,080
view it's a good thing

2335
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:48,900
um my my issue is when people take a

2336
01:26:53,570 --> 01:26:51,120
hard line like I'm a skeptic no matter

2337
01:26:55,129 --> 01:26:53,580
what it's like listen you you have to

2338
01:26:57,110 --> 01:26:55,139
have an open mind both ways it doesn't

2339
01:26:59,810 --> 01:26:57,120
work it doesn't work either way you

2340
01:27:02,570 --> 01:26:59,820
can't be all in on UFOs and you can't be

2341
01:27:04,250 --> 01:27:02,580
totally uh all in on it's it's all bogus

2342
01:27:05,990 --> 01:27:04,260
you have to look at it from a very

2343
01:27:08,450 --> 01:27:06,000
critical lens and be like okay well

2344
01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:08,460
let's figure this out is this particular

2345
01:27:12,169 --> 01:27:10,320
thing real or not let me go on to the

2346
01:27:13,729 --> 01:27:12,179
next one if it is or isn't and and you

2347
01:27:15,649 --> 01:27:13,739
never know you'll learn things along the

2348
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:15,659
way about how Aviation works it's it's

2349
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:18,719
it's a really awesome way to to actually

2350
01:27:22,729 --> 01:27:21,120
kind of build a foundation for for

2351
01:27:23,870 --> 01:27:22,739
yourself when you're talking about these

2352
01:27:24,410 --> 01:27:23,880
things

2353
01:27:25,850 --> 01:27:24,420
um

2354
01:27:28,430 --> 01:27:25,860
gosh there was one more thing I wanted

2355
01:27:29,689 --> 01:27:28,440
to mention but um I I lost my train of

2356
01:27:32,390 --> 01:27:29,699
thought

2357
01:27:34,250 --> 01:27:32,400
you're fine the um yeah the only the

2358
01:27:36,649 --> 01:27:34,260
only meaningful heuristic I keep coming

2359
01:27:40,070 --> 01:27:36,659
back to around this subject is that I

2360
01:27:41,930 --> 01:27:40,080
keep a wide berth from anyone who

2361
01:27:45,890 --> 01:27:41,940
declares that they have all the answers

2362
01:27:48,590 --> 01:27:45,900
or any sort of conclusory opinion

2363
01:27:50,450 --> 01:27:48,600
um I think yeah I think the most honest

2364
01:27:52,370 --> 01:27:50,460
thing any of us can do is admit that

2365
01:27:54,169 --> 01:27:52,380
we're basically agnostics with

2366
01:27:55,610 --> 01:27:54,179
particular inclinations towards

2367
01:27:58,910 --> 01:27:55,620
different ideas because none of us

2368
01:28:00,410 --> 01:27:58,920
really know or can conclusively declare

2369
01:28:03,410 --> 01:28:00,420
anything

2370
01:28:05,510 --> 01:28:03,420
yeah and that that's where you know I I

2371
01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:05,520
have a lot of um

2372
01:28:09,649 --> 01:28:07,800
you know it's people like Dodie

2373
01:28:13,010 --> 01:28:09,659
um and and certain other like

2374
01:28:14,510 --> 01:28:13,020
quote-unquote like uh Gatekeepers who

2375
01:28:15,770 --> 01:28:14,520
have information who can kind of tell

2376
01:28:17,629 --> 01:28:15,780
you they'll be able to tell you that

2377
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:17,639
yeah reptilians come from zedia reticuli

2378
01:28:21,050 --> 01:28:19,440
but they can't tell you something else

2379
01:28:23,570 --> 01:28:21,060
because I'm an NDA you know it doesn't

2380
01:28:25,729 --> 01:28:23,580
really make too much sense to me but you

2381
01:28:28,550 --> 01:28:25,739
have people who kind of disseminate

2382
01:28:30,290 --> 01:28:28,560
information and it's not it's taken

2383
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:30,300
almost like like okay this guy said this

2384
01:28:35,570 --> 01:28:33,360
so this is true right and like people

2385
01:28:36,830 --> 01:28:35,580
run with that afterwards and I I think

2386
01:28:39,709 --> 01:28:36,840
it doesn't disservice to the community

2387
01:28:41,090 --> 01:28:39,719
does the service that people in general

2388
01:28:43,250 --> 01:28:41,100
um you know and it's frankly it's

2389
01:28:45,050 --> 01:28:43,260
insulting to to your intelligence you

2390
01:28:46,490 --> 01:28:45,060
know to to have to like even entertain

2391
01:28:47,510 --> 01:28:46,500
some of that stuff

2392
01:28:49,970 --> 01:28:47,520
um because then you get people like

2393
01:28:51,470 --> 01:28:49,980
David Wilcock and Corey Goode who will

2394
01:28:54,350 --> 01:28:51,480
you know

2395
01:28:57,290 --> 01:28:54,360
they deserve a comedy movie but in a

2396
01:28:59,209 --> 01:28:57,300
sense that they they should it should be

2397
01:29:01,189 --> 01:28:59,219
a parody like what pieces of [\h__\h] they

2398
01:29:04,370 --> 01:29:01,199
really are you know like we're like

2399
01:29:06,830 --> 01:29:04,380
they'll they'll lie to people

2400
01:29:11,209 --> 01:29:06,840
yeah I I mean I agree I'm not gonna say

2401
01:29:15,050 --> 01:29:13,490
um yeah you know you have grifters who

2402
01:29:17,570 --> 01:29:15,060
are like who will take advantage and and

2403
01:29:19,550 --> 01:29:17,580
like they're taking it basically they're

2404
01:29:21,830 --> 01:29:19,560
taking advantage of your curiosity right

2405
01:29:23,930 --> 01:29:21,840
which I think is is um

2406
01:29:25,610 --> 01:29:23,940
it's just shitty man it's really shitty

2407
01:29:27,169 --> 01:29:25,620
because what you find out later that

2408
01:29:28,189 --> 01:29:27,179
you're taking advantage of you're not

2409
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:28,199
going to want to go down that Avenue

2410
01:29:32,149 --> 01:29:29,520
anymore you're going to be you're gonna

2411
01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:32,159
be so like skeptical or or like so cut

2412
01:29:35,450 --> 01:29:34,080
off to it that you you're not going to

2413
01:29:36,649 --> 01:29:35,460
pursue it anymore it's because you have

2414
01:29:39,410 --> 01:29:36,659
this terrible experience of this one

2415
01:29:41,030 --> 01:29:39,420
person that you were all in on

2416
01:29:42,350 --> 01:29:41,040
um you know and I think it's a community

2417
01:29:43,310 --> 01:29:42,360
though like there's people in the

2418
01:29:44,689 --> 01:29:43,320
community that have like a really good

2419
01:29:45,770 --> 01:29:44,699
[\h__\h] detector and they'll call stuff

2420
01:29:48,169 --> 01:29:45,780
out

2421
01:29:51,290 --> 01:29:48,179
um and I think it works in a sense where

2422
01:29:54,649 --> 01:29:51,300
if we all kind of we're just open to to

2423
01:29:57,470 --> 01:29:54,659
both views opposing views and and just

2424
01:30:00,169 --> 01:29:57,480
like also start with we both don't know

2425
01:30:02,629 --> 01:30:00,179
what this is but here are the presented

2426
01:30:04,010 --> 01:30:02,639
facts let's just go from there

2427
01:30:05,209 --> 01:30:04,020
um and that that's honestly the best

2428
01:30:06,830 --> 01:30:05,219
friendships I've made in this community

2429
01:30:08,750 --> 01:30:06,840
you know like people are just like yeah

2430
01:30:11,330 --> 01:30:08,760
it could be and here's why I think so

2431
01:30:13,370 --> 01:30:11,340
you know or maybe it's not that but

2432
01:30:15,530 --> 01:30:13,380
here's why I think so you know there's a

2433
01:30:17,629 --> 01:30:15,540
there's a there's a information exchange

2434
01:30:20,990 --> 01:30:17,639
over there yes

2435
01:30:23,149 --> 01:30:21,000
a uh a fellow researcher that has a

2436
01:30:24,950 --> 01:30:23,159
similar take that I really appreciate

2437
01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:24,960
what you've been describing uh red panda

2438
01:30:28,970 --> 01:30:26,760
koala and yourself you know both going

2439
01:30:30,410 --> 01:30:28,980
into the documents um and I just wanted

2440
01:30:32,270 --> 01:30:30,420
to make sure we got to this question

2441
01:30:34,310 --> 01:30:32,280
that uh red panda qual submitted a

2442
01:30:36,410 --> 01:30:34,320
little while ago if Tom could have

2443
01:30:41,689 --> 01:30:36,420
dinner with three people from sign

2444
01:30:46,010 --> 01:30:41,699
Grudge Blue Book who and why oh man okay

2445
01:30:47,810 --> 01:30:46,020
I'm gonna focus on signs just because uh

2446
01:30:49,490 --> 01:30:47,820
that's where I've lived the last two

2447
01:30:52,970 --> 01:30:49,500
years

2448
01:30:57,229 --> 01:30:52,980
I would love to talk to Alfred letting

2449
01:30:59,209 --> 01:30:57,239
who was a rocket propulsion expert

2450
01:31:00,950 --> 01:30:59,219
um and uh well I think he did a bunch of

2451
01:31:02,209 --> 01:31:00,960
other things but he was like he had a

2452
01:31:04,070 --> 01:31:02,219
really strong background Aviation and

2453
01:31:05,510 --> 01:31:04,080
was studying these things

2454
01:31:08,570 --> 01:31:05,520
um just because

2455
01:31:10,610 --> 01:31:08,580
he investigated these things firsthand

2456
01:31:12,350 --> 01:31:10,620
he went out in the field he poured over

2457
01:31:15,649 --> 01:31:12,360
all these documents I would love to hear

2458
01:31:19,729 --> 01:31:15,659
his his take on it and why he ended up

2459
01:31:22,030 --> 01:31:19,739
thinking this was uh interplanetary I

2460
01:31:24,830 --> 01:31:22,040
would love to talk to Hoyt Vandenberg

2461
01:31:26,810 --> 01:31:24,840
who was the Commanding General of our

2462
01:31:28,910 --> 01:31:26,820
the Army Air Force and then later I

2463
01:31:29,689 --> 01:31:28,920
believe the United States Air Force

2464
01:31:33,649 --> 01:31:29,699
um

2465
01:31:35,450 --> 01:31:33,659
because he was the guy basically that

2466
01:31:37,550 --> 01:31:35,460
wanted a Russian answer and was

2467
01:31:39,830 --> 01:31:37,560
contending with sign and was when

2468
01:31:41,810 --> 01:31:39,840
presented this quote-unquote estimate of

2469
01:31:44,629 --> 01:31:41,820
the situation that they that they they

2470
01:31:49,189 --> 01:31:44,639
wrote up and gave to him uh basically he

2471
01:31:50,689 --> 01:31:49,199
said f you uh this is not it give us a

2472
01:31:52,250 --> 01:31:50,699
different answer and I want to know why

2473
01:31:54,169 --> 01:31:52,260
he thought so

2474
01:31:56,270 --> 01:31:54,179
um I want to know whether it was because

2475
01:31:58,850 --> 01:31:56,280
the public can't handle it or whether he

2476
01:32:00,290 --> 01:31:58,860
really think that these were Russian and

2477
01:32:02,229 --> 01:32:00,300
that like we had to get in front of this

2478
01:32:05,149 --> 01:32:02,239
before like you know they came over here

2479
01:32:07,669 --> 01:32:05,159
and the third one

2480
01:32:10,729 --> 01:32:07,679
I don't know probably

2481
01:32:13,729 --> 01:32:10,739
I mean I would love to sit down with

2482
01:32:15,050 --> 01:32:13,739
I'll just sit down with uh with heinek I

2483
01:32:17,810 --> 01:32:15,060
think heineker but like just because

2484
01:32:19,370 --> 01:32:17,820
like they're so close to the phenomenon

2485
01:32:20,629 --> 01:32:19,380
they're so close to

2486
01:32:22,669 --> 01:32:20,639
uh

2487
01:32:24,410 --> 01:32:22,679
at least like trying to figure out what

2488
01:32:26,570 --> 01:32:24,420
it was and specifically heinek who kind

2489
01:32:28,310 --> 01:32:26,580
of like you know he had that like

2490
01:32:29,870 --> 01:32:28,320
hero's journey where like oh I'm just

2491
01:32:31,010 --> 01:32:29,880
debunking all of this and later kind of

2492
01:32:32,450 --> 01:32:31,020
start coming around like hey there's

2493
01:32:34,490 --> 01:32:32,460
something to this

2494
01:32:36,530 --> 01:32:34,500
um I would love to find out what it was

2495
01:32:40,370 --> 01:32:36,540
that really kind of

2496
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:40,380
changed him from from being you know a

2497
01:32:44,510 --> 01:32:42,480
lap dog for the Air Force to someone

2498
01:32:47,330 --> 01:32:44,520
coming out and saying I really regret

2499
01:32:50,209 --> 01:32:47,340
doing this in this way be like well well

2500
01:32:53,270 --> 01:32:50,219
why like what what were the cases what

2501
01:32:54,530 --> 01:32:53,280
what was it was it somebody was it just

2502
01:32:55,189 --> 01:32:54,540
what

2503
01:32:56,810 --> 01:32:55,199
um

2504
01:32:58,470 --> 01:32:56,820
but I mean like honestly I'd have dinner

2505
01:33:01,930 --> 01:32:58,480
with pretty much anybody

2506
01:33:04,750 --> 01:33:01,940
[Laughter]

2507
01:33:07,010 --> 01:33:04,760
isn't that wholesome

2508
01:33:08,810 --> 01:33:07,020
what what a guy

2509
01:33:10,610 --> 01:33:08,820
um so yeah so look we are a little go

2510
01:33:12,950 --> 01:33:10,620
past the bottom of the hour

2511
01:33:14,450 --> 01:33:12,960
um I I warned Tom here that because we

2512
01:33:16,790 --> 01:33:14,460
have a skeleton crew we're only going to

2513
01:33:19,430 --> 01:33:16,800
do a 90-minute show tonight

2514
01:33:20,330 --> 01:33:19,440
um so Tom uh before I kick you off the

2515
01:33:22,250 --> 01:33:20,340
Stream

2516
01:33:25,729 --> 01:33:22,260
where can we find you

2517
01:33:28,310 --> 01:33:25,739
uh I mean I'm on Twitter eots underscore

2518
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:28,320
comic that's basically where I live uh

2519
01:33:32,750 --> 01:33:30,480
cool I have a YouTube channel an

2520
01:33:34,250 --> 01:33:32,760
estimate situation which I just post

2521
01:33:35,930 --> 01:33:34,260
really cool stuff I'm working on and

2522
01:33:37,669 --> 01:33:35,940
it's sometimes unpolished and it'll get

2523
01:33:39,229 --> 01:33:37,679
changed later on

2524
01:33:40,610 --> 01:33:39,239
um but mainly Twitter I mean I feel like

2525
01:33:42,229 --> 01:33:40,620
that's where the community is at that

2526
01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:42,239
they've supported this project from day

2527
01:33:47,030 --> 01:33:44,940
one and uh you know I'm just I'm just

2528
01:33:49,729 --> 01:33:47,040
happy to be be there and

2529
01:33:50,990 --> 01:33:49,739
I mean like really quickly like I was at

2530
01:33:52,970 --> 01:33:51,000
a New Year's party and I tried to

2531
01:33:54,770 --> 01:33:52,980
talking to somebody about UFOs and like

2532
01:33:56,030 --> 01:33:54,780
because I mentioned that uh yeah we're

2533
01:33:57,649 --> 01:33:56,040
working on graphic novels about this

2534
01:34:00,290 --> 01:33:57,659
look how it's really cool what's it

2535
01:34:02,270 --> 01:34:00,300
about UFOs oh that's really cool and I'm

2536
01:34:04,669 --> 01:34:02,280
like yeah you know in 1947 blah blah

2537
01:34:06,350 --> 01:34:04,679
blah this and then and you just quickly

2538
01:34:09,350 --> 01:34:06,360
get like oh okay

2539
01:34:11,030 --> 01:34:09,360
good day you know for Twitter like

2540
01:34:13,330 --> 01:34:11,040
because then you're that you're the

2541
01:34:16,490 --> 01:34:13,340
weird guy at the nearest party

2542
01:34:17,870 --> 01:34:16,500
yeah but you put Twitter it's just like

2543
01:34:19,129 --> 01:34:17,880
everyone talks about it there's so many

2544
01:34:20,870 --> 01:34:19,139
different points of view and opinions

2545
01:34:23,870 --> 01:34:20,880
and it's like it really it's I came in

2546
01:34:25,610 --> 01:34:23,880
with a really close like close off mine

2547
01:34:28,189 --> 01:34:25,620
in a sense where I was very nuts and

2548
01:34:30,709 --> 01:34:28,199
bolts and it's really expanded my my

2549
01:34:32,870 --> 01:34:30,719
lens on everything and I I think that is

2550
01:34:35,629 --> 01:34:32,880
the uh the strength of a community like

2551
01:34:37,970 --> 01:34:35,639
that so a long story short just find me

2552
01:34:39,590 --> 01:34:37,980
on Twitter beautiful

2553
01:34:41,629 --> 01:34:39,600
well Tom thank you so much again for

2554
01:34:42,890 --> 01:34:41,639
joining us I'm super excited to have you

2555
01:34:44,330 --> 01:34:42,900
on the show this was an amazing

2556
01:34:46,490 --> 01:34:44,340
discussion it's always great to hear

2557
01:34:48,590 --> 01:34:46,500
from a creative

2558
01:34:50,270 --> 01:34:48,600
yeah hell yeah this was awesome uh I'm

2559
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:50,280
glad I got to talk to someone about UFOs

2560
01:34:54,709 --> 01:34:52,320
of course it's our pleasure all right

2561
01:34:58,430 --> 01:34:54,719
took her man uh I'll talk to you soon

2562
01:35:01,910 --> 01:35:00,290
all right Campbell

2563
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:01,920
it was just you and me tonight man and

2564
01:35:07,970 --> 01:35:04,800
we made it what a lovely chat that was

2565
01:35:08,810 --> 01:35:07,980
nice yeah was really nice it was also

2566
01:35:11,450 --> 01:35:08,820
um

2567
01:35:14,390 --> 01:35:11,460
you know uh like we said

2568
01:35:16,610 --> 01:35:14,400
um neither of us are case people so well

2569
01:35:18,590 --> 01:35:16,620
I love Lewis and Nick very very much and

2570
01:35:20,689 --> 01:35:18,600
think they offer incredible Insight they

2571
01:35:22,310 --> 01:35:20,699
also have a very different approach

2572
01:35:24,709 --> 01:35:22,320
um that I think you and I do so it's

2573
01:35:26,570 --> 01:35:24,719
well and I like that contrast so it's

2574
01:35:29,810 --> 01:35:26,580
like I get to ask the questions and

2575
01:35:31,550 --> 01:35:29,820
learn and hopefully people watching uh

2576
01:35:34,550 --> 01:35:31,560
also learn something

2577
01:35:36,290 --> 01:35:34,560
yes yeah yeah and we had like a crazy

2578
01:35:38,330 --> 01:35:36,300
Lively chat tonight too it was really

2579
01:35:40,669 --> 01:35:38,340
great yeah that was cool yeah I'll try

2580
01:35:43,689 --> 01:35:42,169
um so great

2581
01:35:46,850 --> 01:35:43,699
um so next week

2582
01:35:49,370 --> 01:35:46,860
uh on the invisible night school we are

2583
01:35:51,050 --> 01:35:49,380
welcoming Jay Shanks who runs pericon

2584
01:35:53,390 --> 01:35:51,060
he'll be talking about how strangeness

2585
01:35:55,550 --> 01:35:53,400
Cryptids art as paranormal experience

2586
01:35:57,649 --> 01:35:55,560
all sorts of cool [\h__\h]

2587
01:36:00,410 --> 01:35:57,659
um and then we're on the 22nd we'll be

2588
01:36:02,870 --> 01:36:00,420
welcoming Jeff from strange Recon so

2589
01:36:04,910 --> 01:36:02,880
perfect segue to talk about Black Ops

2590
01:36:07,550 --> 01:36:04,920
and Military technology very excited to

2591
01:36:09,410 --> 01:36:07,560
have him on the show yeah

2592
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:09,420
Campbell anything good going on in your

2593
01:36:14,390 --> 01:36:10,560
world

2594
01:36:16,729 --> 01:36:14,400
well sure but I can't talk about it here

2595
01:36:19,250 --> 01:36:16,739
um but uh yeah I want everybody to jump

2596
01:36:21,290 --> 01:36:19,260
on the Discord uh I'm gonna plug the

2597
01:36:23,810 --> 01:36:21,300
Discord our Discord invisible night

2598
01:36:25,790 --> 01:36:23,820
school come and jump on there and um

2599
01:36:29,450 --> 01:36:25,800
argue with me about things I like

2600
01:36:33,169 --> 01:36:29,460
arguing it in good faith not that fake

2601
01:36:35,810 --> 01:36:33,179
and uh uip study on Twitter can pop me

2602
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:35,820
and complain about things I've said here

2603
01:36:40,729 --> 01:36:38,400
yes what about you Layla

2604
01:36:42,530 --> 01:36:40,739
hey man I'm just living the dream

2605
01:36:44,330 --> 01:36:42,540
um I'm traveling the next couple weeks

2606
01:36:46,850 --> 01:36:44,340
so you guys will see the background of

2607
01:36:49,070 --> 01:36:46,860
my broadcasting space change

2608
01:36:50,689 --> 01:36:49,080
um you know um Regular things writing

2609
01:36:53,750 --> 01:36:50,699
about Art Bell

2610
01:36:55,790 --> 01:36:53,760
um listening to lots and lots of old Art

2611
01:36:57,709 --> 01:36:55,800
Bell episodes I came across a weird one

2612
01:36:59,750 --> 01:36:57,719
this week where I'm pretty certain BTK

2613
01:37:03,890 --> 01:36:59,760
the serial killer from Kansas City

2614
01:37:05,990 --> 01:37:03,900
Kansas uh facts art and I read the facts

2615
01:37:07,970 --> 01:37:06,000
aloud oh yeah dude I tweeted it out

2616
01:37:12,110 --> 01:37:07,980
um

2617
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:12,120
he was really the worst exactly right I

2618
01:37:15,830 --> 01:37:13,920
have I have all kinds of personal

2619
01:37:17,810 --> 01:37:15,840
opinions about true crime and like even

2620
01:37:21,530 --> 01:37:17,820
just talking about this is like weird

2621
01:37:24,050 --> 01:37:21,540
and kind of gross but um yeah art read

2622
01:37:26,810 --> 01:37:24,060
um a very ordinary facts from someone

2623
01:37:29,030 --> 01:37:26,820
who signed the facts BTK and it was from

2624
01:37:31,550 --> 01:37:29,040
five months before he was Dennis Raider

2625
01:37:32,990 --> 01:37:31,560
it was actually caught and apprehended

2626
01:37:35,330 --> 01:37:33,000
um and he signed it he was from Kansas

2627
01:37:37,729 --> 01:37:35,340
City Kansas so I am fairly certain this

2628
01:37:40,310 --> 01:37:37,739
was actually the BTK

2629
01:37:41,870 --> 01:37:40,320
um anyone wants to very disturbing you

2630
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:41,880
can creep through my Twitter I tweeted

2631
01:37:47,270 --> 01:37:44,639
it out with a time stamp link to Spotify

2632
01:37:55,910 --> 01:37:47,280
so if you want to listen to Art Bell

2633
01:38:00,590 --> 01:37:58,669
um so yeah besides that um you know

2634
01:38:03,530 --> 01:38:00,600
situation normal

2635
01:38:05,930 --> 01:38:03,540
um so I will see you and hopefully our

2636
01:38:08,810 --> 01:38:05,940
other two comrades here next Wednesday 9

2637
01:38:12,290 --> 01:38:08,820
pm Eastern for our conversation

2638
01:38:13,970 --> 01:38:12,300
and that's good yes yes always good have

2639
01:38:15,649 --> 01:38:13,980
a nice night Campbell and thank you

2640
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:15,659
everyone again for joining us this

2641
01:38:35,070 --> 01:38:32,649
[Music]

2642
01:38:47,050 --> 01:38:35,080
thank you

2643
01:38:49,420 --> 01:38:47,060
[Music]

2644
01:39:02,630 --> 01:38:49,430
thank you

2645
01:39:05,570 --> 01:39:02,640
[Music]

2646
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:05,580
[Applause]